MuggleNet - Godrics Hollow Theory.

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 163472

bboyminn:
> 
> Yes, but 'faith' and 'loyalty' are a two way street.
> The Fidelius, or as I see it, the 'Fidelity' Charm is 
> based in trust. The Potter's trusted Peter with their 
> lives, and in accepting that trust, Peter is implying a
> true and deep loyalty to the Potters. When Peter betrayed
> the Potters, he betrayed their loyalty. He breached the 
> 'fidelity' of the Charm, and the Charm was broken. 
<snip>
> 
> Clearly, Peter was neither 'faithful' or 'loyal', and 
> did not adhere strictly to his Vows and Promises. That
> supreme act of IN-fidelity breached the Charm. 

Carol responds:
This much I agree with. The fidelity of the SK is surely one crucial
component of the Fidelius Charm, hence the name. If keeping faith
weren't crucial, the identity of the SK wouldn't matter. The SK has to
be a trusted person. (Just why the Potters would think that PP
wouldn't break down and reveal the Secret to LV if he were tortured is
beyond me. I guess they figured, like Sirius Black, that LV would
never expect them to entrust the Secret to such an insignificant
person. Alternatively, they thought that no one, including LV, would
suspect that a Fidelius Charm had been cast. It doesn't seem to be a
very common or well-known charm.) *If* the Charm could be broken by
revealing the Secret to Voldemort (or a DE), it's because of a breach
of faith. Just revealing the secret does not break the spell, but
revealing it to an untrustworthy person, in particular the person from
whom the Potters were hiding, might do so. *If* that were the case,
and *if* DD had *not* been told the Secret but previously knew it
because he had provided the Potters' hiding place in the first place,
he would immediately know that the Potters had been betrayed and were
in danger because he again knew where they were. He could immediately
send Hagrid to the house in Godric's Hollow (not merely to the village
of GH) to try to rescue Harry. The question in my mind is why he would
send Hagrid, who is not exactly inconspicuous, is not a fully
qualified wizard, is highly emotional, and is prone to botch things
rather than going there himself. For that reason, I don't think that
merely telling Voldemort the Secret broke the Charm.

<snip>
> But it works in my mind for the current status of
> #12 Grimmauld Place. Regardless of whether the intent
> was temporary, at this point in time (as far as we know),
> Grimmauld Place is NOT the Headquarters of the Order, 
> meaning the secret as revealed to Harry is no longer 
> true. When that Secret became false, the Secret Keeper 
> Charm on Grimmauld Place was broken (in my view). 

Carol responds:
In that case, Snape was lying to Bellatrix when he told her that he
couldn't reveal the location of the Order HQ. ("You understand how the
charm works? i cannot say the name of the place.") Even though I
believe in DDM!Snape, I think that Snape was telling the truth here
and that 12 GP was still the Order HQ and still protected by the Charm
even though the Order temporarily moved out in case Bellatrix
inherited the property. (Just how she'd be able to see it, I don't
know. Maybe *not* being able to see it would give her the clue that it
must be the Order HQ?)
> 
bboyminn:
> So, in my view, the Secret Keeper Charm can be broken
> by two methods; 1.) A total and complete faithless
> breach of fidelity 2.) when the Secret is no longer
> valid or true. I believe the first case applies to
> Godrics Hollow and the second case applies to 
> Grimmauld Place. <snip>

Carol responds:
I think that the 12 GP Secret is still in place and the Potters'
Secret was no longer valid or true. If the deaths of two Potters
didn't invalidate it, the destruction of the house did. "The Potters
are hiding in [address] Godric's Hollow was no longer a valid secret
because it was no longer true, even for Harry, who was not hiding,
invisible, but was lying exposed to view of Muggle and Wizard alike,
in the rubble of the ruined house. It's also possible that the Secret
was breached and the Charm invalidated the moment that Voldemort could
see the Potters. Certainly, it was pointless from that moment onward.


> bboyminn:
<snip>
> If say Sirius gave Dumbledore a piece of paper with
> the Secret on it, I think he would have taken it 
> back immediately after Dumbledore read it, or he would
> have made sure it was immediately destroyed. He WOULD
> NOT have allowed Dumbledore to keep the piece of paper.
> 
> I do think a few people knew the Secret because I believe
> the Potters needed a degree of support; news, friends,
> food, etc.... So, reasonably some people knew, exactly 
> who knew is another matter. Certainly Dumbledore, but
> who else is open to speculation.

Carol responds:
The Secret was in effect for only a week, not much time for anyone to
learn about it. I agree with your (snipped) point that the Potters
would not have been careless enough to have PP notify anyone of the
Secret by owl post, but I also highly doubt that anyone, either Sirius
Black or PP (as himself or polyjuiced to look like Black--when would
he have had time to brew polyjuice, anyway?) would hand a paper with
the Secret on it to Dumbledore, which could only arouse his
suspicions. Why send PP if Black is the SK? Why, if Black is the SK,
should Black not just tell him the Secret rather than writing it? The
only reason that *Harry* was given the 12 GP Secret in writing was
because it had to be delivered by Moody when DD could not be present.
That reason does not apply in the case of the Potters and Godric's Hollow.

I think that all of them--Black, PP, and the Potters--were in hiding.
It was, after all, Black's decision to check on PP's safety that led
him to conclude that the Potters were in danger.

I don't think that anyone else, not even Lupin, knew the Secret. There
was too little time and they didn't trust him. I'm not even sure that
they trusted Dumbledore, or if they did, they had no safe way to tell
him the Secret. (Or maybe they thought that he already knew it,
assuming that he provided the house.) Their priority was staying safe,
unseen, inside the house (which was not itself invisible, unlike 12
GP) and the fewer people who knew where they were, the better.

I'm quite sure that, however the Charm was breached, it was indeed
broken, and DD realized the Potter's danger as soon as he remembered
their hiding place. As for how he knew that Harry, the Prophecy Boy,
was not dead, I can only attribute that knowledge to Snape's showing
DD his fading or faded Dark Mark, proof positive that Voldemort had
lost his powers. And that could only mean that he had somehow been
thwarted or defeated by a fifteen-month-old infant "born as the
seventh month die[d]." And no doubt DD consulted those fancy silver
instruments before sending Hagrid to rescue Harry.

As for the MoM, the two successful AKs, at least, must have registered
on their Unforgiveable Curse detectors. Why they weren't already there
when Hagrid arrived, I don't know. Or maybe they were and Hagrid had
some sort of authorization from DD to pick up Harry, and the Aurors
were busy keeping Muggles away. As for Black, who must have arrived
moments later, they would have no reason to suspect him--yet--as no
one except the now-dead Potters themselves, Black, Vapormort, and a
certain rat even knew that there had been a Fidelius Charm.

Carol, unable still to account for the Missing 24 Hours but sure that
DD was *not* told the Secret in writing or in person