Snape, a Deatheater./the best played chess game

[puduhepa98 at aol.com]

No: HPFGUIDX 164041


>Magpie:
<snip>
I>n this scenario you're describing  the biggest moment in Snape's arc in HBP 
goes nowhere. It doesn't fit  anything strategic, since it doesn't help Snape 
find out what the task is  (and the only place he actively tries to find out 
what the task is in some  other way is off-screen), nor does it help him get 
in with Draco (with whom  he should already be in), and it doesn't fit in 
emotionally, because JKR  hasn't written anything pointing to that sudden 
recognition or the fallout  from it.

Nikkalmati
 
I think the sudden recognition (or an inkling of it) is in the twitch and  
the fallout is the argument in the forest.  Taking the UV was intended to  help 
Snape get in with Draco and we do see him trying to find out the details on  
screen when he questions Draco.  There is plenty of room in the next book  for 
the arc of this story to be developed.
.  
>Magpie:
>snip>

> Not only does no one in canon suggest that Snape killing  
DD can't ever be an option, several people in LV's camp state outright that  
it is. They don't say killing DD is *easy*--certainly it's not so easy a  
novice like Draco could do it. But there's nothing to indicate that LV  
wouldn't consider that his best man--the one who's been hoodwinking DD all  
these years--could give it a try.


>Magpie:
>Yes, she  sees it as a suicide mission for Draco, and she would obviously 
sacrifice  Snape in his place if somebody has to die trying. But everyone 
knowing that  killing DD would be a huge challenge doesn't prove that LV 
couldn't ever  have someone attempt it. Snape himself says he (Snape) has 
wanted Dumbledore  alive for a reason that benefits himself.

Nikkalmati
 
Snape was only relying on DD for protection from Azkaban before LV  returned. 
 There was no reason not to kill DD after LV was back, except  that LV didn't 
want to lose Snape in a futile attempt to destroy the greatest  wizard alive. 
 If it is a reasonable possibility for Snape to kill DD, why  doesn't LV 
order him to do it?
Nikkalmati
 
 

>Magpie:
>But Snape can get all of these things without taking  the Vow. Snape's 
already an important figure in Draco's life--probably  someone he would be 
more likely to go to for help than Narcissa at this  stage of his life. Snape 
could also agree to Narcissa's terms without taking  the Vow. He's the one 
with the power here. He's gotten all the information  you described already. 
He doesn't have to put his life on the line for it  after the fact. Even if 
he'd only sworn the first two parts he's taking  quite a risk--but then 
there's that third Vow.
 
Nikkalmati
 
It isn't clear to me he can get all the details from Draco without agreeing  
not only to protect him but to swear to do so where Narcissa could tell Draco  
not to confide in Snape, if she wanted.  As it turns out Bella does that,  
but Snape could not anticipate Bella would interfere.
Nikkalmati

>Magpie
>That, [ Part 3} as was said elsewhere, seems to take a lot of  explaining 
and "he 
didn't know what he was vowing to do" falls comically  flat to me because 
what a silly thing to do! Nor am I comfortable with the  magical explanation 
which says, "Once you've got the ropes you have to agree  to everything a 
person might say" because it robs the Vow of the free will  of the person 
making it. The Vow, to me, seems to just add a magical  component to an 
actual Vow. Snape's hand-twitch, to me, indicates that he  doesn't want to 
take that third Vow, but that he's covering that up. I think  if he didn't 
know what he was vowing to do, we'd get more than that (I don't  recall more, 
but I don't have the book with me), a pause where Snape would  have to weigh 
whether this was a wise idea or not. There also tends to be a  lot of 
reference to the third part of the Vow being a big surprise, but it's  not a 
total shock. It is what Narcissa was asking him for all along.
 
Nikkalmati
 
Well, I assume you agree, based on what little we know about the UV,  it is 
possible it was too late to back out.
In any case, you seem to say he  was surprised he was asked to kill DD, but 
he was able to conceal his reaction  to that, but if he was asked to do some 
unspecified but difficult task, he  should not be able to conceal his reaction?
Nikkalmati

>>Magpie:
>>So after he lets go his golden opportunity  to find out what he wants
>>to know (sacrificed to his more important  motivation of making sure
> that Narcissa has nothing to be reported to LV  for...except coming
> to Snape at all and the request of Snape she's about  to make), he
> now thinks that if he pretends to know he can get  information out of
> Draco later. Why Draco later? If he pretends to know  he can get
> information out of Bellatrix and Narcissa *now* with the  same
> protection to Narcissa.
>
>
Nikkalmati
I am not sure how he could get the task out of Narcissa and Bella without  
exposing his own ignorance.  Perhaps you could supply some sample  dialogue?
Nikkalmati

>Magpie:
>None of these stages are indicated by anyone's  behavior. In fact, the scene 
is really written along totally different  lines. Bellatrix is already deep 
in by following Narcissa to Snape's house,  she's already in a precarious 
position. Snape never shows any signs of these  different motivations 
shifting around. It's again a similar problem that I  have to many of the 
interpretations of Draco's arc in HBP--it comes down to  lots of complicated 
changes of DE priorities that are invisible in the text  that seem to work 
backwards from the theory that's being proven instead of  deducing from 
what's there.

This just seems completely at odds with  the way Rowling writes as I've read 
her. It's not that Snape can't want to  protect Narcissa as much as he can in 
the scene. But it imo needs to fit  into the whole scene smoothly, not just 
be incredibly  important--importanbe incredibly  important--importan<WBR>t e
his top  priority, and then disappear a second later when it's not needed to 
explain  any more lines.

Nikkalmati
It seems written in the scene there to me, particularly when he gets up and  
looks out the window to give himself time to think.  When the ladies come  in, 
he is not choosing protection of Narcissa above any other goal;  he doesn't 
know yet that there is something that he needs to find out,  there is nothing 
he can do about Bella's presence, but he can prevent Narcissa  from saying 
something dangerous in front of Bella. BTW I have no particular  opinion on the 
Draco/ Vanishing Cabinet issue.
 
Nikkalmati

Nikkalmati:>
> Lets turn this around. If Snape knows all about  Draco's task, when 
> Narcissa
> turns up on his doorstep all upset,  he would deduce why she was there at 
> onc> e. In that case, what  possible reason does he have for telling her 
> to be
> quiet? He  can turn immediately to Bella and admonish her that Narcissa 
> is  not
> betraying a confidence. Why stop her in the first  place?

Magpie:
That particular turnaround turned up a pretty weak flaw  there. Snape's 
playing the part of the loyal DE throughout the scene, and  shutting Narcissa 
up (out of loyalty) is an easy, perfectly in character  thing for DE!Snape to 
do. It's exactly in character with the persona he has  on that side. Snape is 
the authority figure in the scene. Admonishing  Bellatrix is "siding" with 
Narcissa. He's not siding with her. He's  establishing himself as the loyal 
DE here before he offers her some  hope.

Unlike Clueless!Snape, Clued-in!Snape doesn't lose anything by  putting off 
the discussion for a few seconds. He gets two things out of the  moment 
instead of one (he can remind everyone of his DE loyalty and the  power of 
his position). It's only Clueless!Snape who throws something away  by 
shutting Narcissa up.

Nikkalmati
 
So the only reason to tell Narcissa to be quiet is to play the bully and  
lord it over the two women before he reveals his overwhelming position of power  
- the one who is in on LV's every plan?   If he really plays that part  with 
the DEs, I doubt Narcissa would have come to him for help.

<snip>




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