Snape, a Deatheater.

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164051

> >Magpie:
> <snip>
> I>n this scenario you're describing  the biggest moment in Snape's 
arc in HBP 
> goes nowhere. It doesn't fit  anything strategic, since it doesn't 
help Snape 
> find out what the task is  (and the only place he actively tries 
to find out 
> what the task is in some  other way is off-screen), nor does it 
help him get 
> in with Draco (with whom  he should already be in), and it doesn't 
fit in 
> emotionally, because JKR  hasn't written anything pointing to that 
sudden 
> recognition or the fallout  from it.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>  
> I think the sudden recognition (or an inkling of it) is in the 
twitch and  
> the fallout is the argument in the forest. 

Magpie:
But surely the twitch would only be a recognition that he's going to 
be asked to do this deed, whatever it is. It doesn't give him any 
more information on what the deed is. The twitch sounds to me more 
like he's steeling himself already not to pull away. 

The scene in the forest months later is the fallout to his taking 
the Vow no matter what the circumstances were. He's not indicating 
that this was a mistake, that he wouldn't have made the Vow if he'd 
known what he was Vowing to. In that scene Snape's complaining about 
Dumbledore

Nikkalmati:
 Taking the UV was intended to  help 
> Snape get in with Draco and we do see him trying to find out the 
details on  
> screen when he questions Draco.  There is plenty of room in the 
next book  for 
> the arc of this story to be developed.

Magpie:
I'm not sure what you mean is going to be developed. The part of the 
story that was about Snape trying to find out what Draco was up to 
is over, and the UV didn't help that at all. In fact, that seems 
counterintuitive. If Snape is trying to find out what Draco is up to 
in order to stop it, as presumably he is in this scenario, he needs 
a very good reason to take that Vow--because how do you stop 
something from happening by agreeing to do it yourself? 

Snape could, of course, have no intention of actually doing the deed 
and be planning to die himself if he and DD can't think of another 
way out to whatever this is. But that doesn't make the Vow any more 
necessary for trying to get in with Draco. If the Vow is really 
supposed to be a way of getting in with Draco, I think it has to be 
set up that way logically beforehand. Spies, for instance, have been 
known to do bad things to prove themselves to the other side. But 
that doesn't work in this case, because the person Snape is trying 
to get in with is a boy we readers have seen him tight with for 5 
years. We can't know yet that Draco's even being difficult about 
this, so it becomes like saying that Ron took a UV because he hoped 
that way Harry might consider him a friend.
  
> >Magpie:
> >snip>
> 
> > Not only does no one in canon suggest that Snape killing  
> DD can't ever be an option, several people in LV's camp state 
outright that  
> it is. They don't say killing DD is *easy*--certainly it's not so 
easy a  
> novice like Draco could do it. But there's nothing to indicate 
that LV  
> wouldn't consider that his best man--the one who's been 
hoodwinking DD all  
> these years--could give it a try.
> 
> 
> >Magpie:
> >Yes, she  sees it as a suicide mission for Draco, and she would 
obviously 
> sacrifice  Snape in his place if somebody has to die trying. But 
everyone 
> knowing that  killing DD would be a huge challenge doesn't prove 
that LV 
> couldn't ever  have someone attempt it. Snape himself says he 
(Snape) has 
> wanted Dumbledore  alive for a reason that benefits himself.

> Nikkalmati
>  
> Snape was only relying on DD for protection from Azkaban before 
LV  returned. 
>  There was no reason not to kill DD after LV was back, except  
that LV didn't 
> want to lose Snape in a futile attempt to destroy the greatest  
wizard alive. 
>  If it is a reasonable possibility for Snape to kill DD, why  
doesn't LV 
> order him to do it?

Magpie:
That's a different question that I was answering. I brought up 
Snape's reasons for not killing Dumbledore earlier to argue against 
the proposition that everyone on the DE side considers Snape killing 
Dumbledore an impossibility because Dumbledore's invincible. 
Originally you said that Snape claimed he couldn't kill Harry 
because Dumbledore stood in his way, as if he was referring to 
Dumbledore made it impossible. That's why I brought up Snape's 
actual reason for not killing Dumbledore--he doesn't ever talk about 
Dumbledore as being invincible, just very powerful and in the past 
convenient to Snape alive. 

I can't explain why Voldemort hasn't done anything--that's proving a 
negative. You claim that the only reason for LV not to have ordered 
Snape to kill Dumbledore is that he doesn't want to lose Snape's 
life to an impossible task. But Snape himself gives a different 
answer. When he says that he thinks LV (if we assume that "he" is LV-
-and certainly that's what he intends "he" to refer to to Narcissa 
and Bellatrix) expects him (Snape) to do it (Draco's task, which is 
to kill Dumbledore) he does not say anything about his own death. 
Snape says that in the unlikely event that Draco succeeds Snape can 
stay a useful spy at Hogwarts a little longer. Snape's just talked 
of Draco succeeding as an "unlikely" event--not an impossibility. If 
he's talking about Draco succeeding, however unlikely that would be, 
he's hardly talking about killing Dumbledore as impossible. And he's 
given a different reason for his own not killing Dumbledore--if he's 
the one to do it, he proably won't be able to stay on as a spy 
(which Voldemort would want him to do even if Dumbledore is dead, 
according to what Bellatrix and Narcissa are hearing here, and they 
don't disagree with it). So that's the reason Snape gives for LV not 
ordering him to kill Dumbledore.

The premise that LV can not ever consider Snape killing Dumbledore 
is an assumption you are building your theory on, but it doesn't 
come from canon and no one in canon seems to agree with it.


> Nikkalmati
>  
> It isn't clear to me he can get all the details from Draco without 
agreeing  
> not only to protect him but to swear to do so where Narcissa could 
tell Draco  
> not to confide in Snape, if she wanted.  As it turns out Bella 
does that,  
> but Snape could not anticipate Bella would interfere.

Magpie:
First, Snape can agree to help Draco and protect him without taking 
the Vow--and particularly without taking the Vow to do the deed 
instead of Draco if it seems he will fail. That's what Narcissa 
really wants him to do throughout the scene. That's why the stakes 
have to be really high--because it's a suicide pact. 

Second, if Narcissa is supposed to have this much of a hold over 
Draco, and Snape is supposed to have so little influence, we'd need, 
imo, to have seen that before, but we haven't. There's no indication 
Draco is so under his mother's control that she needs to tell him to 
confide in Snape (and of course the book goes on to show Narcissa 
has no such power, because Draco doesn't do what she says). Narcissa 
comes to Snape partially--she says--because she knows about the 
relationship Snape and Draco already have. The need to get Narcissa 
to tell Draco to confide in him, and the need for him to take the 
Vow to do that, just doesn't seem presented in the text at all. Even 
when Snape is arguing with Draco the Vow isn't his main leverage. It 
just seems made up to give Snape some pressing need to take the Vow. 
Bella does seem to tell Draco to not confide in Snape, but I think 
the story makes clear this only works because it goes along with 
Draco's own feelings on the matter. It's not like he wants to 
confide in Snape but doesn't because Bellatrix orders him not to. 
Draco ultimately can't confide in anybody.


> Nikkalmati

>  
> Well, I assume you agree, based on what little we know about the 
UV,  it is 
> possible it was too late to back out.


Magpie:
It's certainly possible once you start the Vow you can't back out, 
but it seems very hard to believe to me. Not only does that undercut 
the metaphor of a Vow, which is supposed to be something one makes 
oneself, not something one is ordered to do, there's no indication 
of that in the scene. Seems to me the way it's written everyone is 
waiting on Snape to decide whether he'll do it or not: 

"There was a moment's silence. Bellarix watched, her wand upon their 
clasped hands, her eyes wide. 
'I will,' said Snape. 
Bellatrix's astounded face glowed red in the blaze of a third tongue 
of flame, which shot from the wand, twisted with the others and 
bound itself thickly around their clasped hands, like a rope, like a 
fiery snake."

The rope that binds Snape to do the deed doesn't exist until he 
agrees to the Vow, Bellatrix looks astounded that he agrees to it, 
and the ropes already there don't get threatening during the moment 
of silence.

> Nikkalmati
> In any case, you seem to say he  was surprised he was asked to 
kill DD, but 
> he was able to conceal his reaction  to that, but if he was asked 
to do some 
> unspecified but difficult task, he  should not be able to conceal 
his reaction?

Magpie:
I think I was saying that I didn't think he was surprised he was 
asked to do the task, that he was prepared for it, and that's why he 
was able to stop himself from showing that his instinct was to pull 
away, reducing it to just a twitch. Thinking honestly about how 
different that would be if he didn't know the task, I suppose if the 
third Vow wasn't a surprise to him and he'd already decided to agree 
to it even without knowing what the task was, it wouldn't play much 
differently. 

> 
> >>Magpie:
> >>So after he lets go his golden opportunity  to find out what he 
wants
> >>to know (sacrificed to his more important  motivation of making 
sure
> > that Narcissa has nothing to be reported to LV  for...except 
coming
> > to Snape at all and the request of Snape she's about  to make), 
he
> > now thinks that if he pretends to know he can get  information 
out of
> > Draco later. Why Draco later? If he pretends to know  he can get
> > information out of Bellatrix and Narcissa *now* with the  same
> > protection to Narcissa.
> >
> >
> Nikkalmati
> I am not sure how he could get the task out of Narcissa and Bella 
without  
> exposing his own ignorance.  Perhaps you could supply some sample  
dialogue?

Magpie:
There are three people in the room discussing an important task the 
son of one of them has been given. One of those people doesn't 
actually know what the task is. If he lets the women talk, wouldn't 
they naturally start revealing information? For instance:

Snape: As it happens, I know the task. Does Draco even have any 
ideas of how to go about it? 

Narcissa: He doesn't see how hard it will be. He's never killed 
anyone before. How is he supposed to kill someone so powerful? He 
thinks he can just slip something into Dumbledore's food at dinner.

Or perhaps: 

Snape: I'd be glad to help Draco. What do you propose I do?

Narcissa: You know Dumbledore better than anyone. You know his 
weaknesses. etc.

It seems hard to have a conversation about an upcoming task without 
referencing the main points here: Dumbledore and kill. When I read 
the scene the first time, I couldn't think of anything else it would 
be. You yourself say that it takes Dumbledore and Snape little time 
to figure it out from the information they've already got.


> Nikkalmati
> It seems written in the scene there to me, particularly when he 
gets up and  
> looks out the window to give himself time to think.  When the 
ladies come  in, 
> he is not choosing protection of Narcissa above any other goal;  
he doesn't 
> know yet that there is something that he needs to find out,  there 
is nothing 
> he can do about Bella's presence, but he can prevent Narcissa  
from saying 
> something dangerous in front of Bella. BTW I have no particular  
opinion on the 
> Draco/ Vanishing Cabinet issue.

Magpie:
The moment at the window is certainly a moment where he could be 
making whatever plan he's making, but don't you think there needs to 
be signs of his getting the information that there's something 
really important afoot and its being a nasty surprise for him (or 
does he think it's just a small thing he can take care of?), signs 
that he's completely talking blind here? Because as I said, it seems 
like Snape often takes the lead here--can he really be sure that 
this is a task that would assure Draco being honored above the rest?
It would also help if there were a sign that he's actually worried 
about Bellatrix's presence in the scene for Narcissa's sake. 

And doesn't that last moment where Bellatrix is so shocked that 
Snape just agreed to kill Dumbledore become nothing for Snape? 
Bellatrix is thinking, "I can't believe he just agreed to kill 
Dumbledore." Narcissa is thinking, "I've saved my son by getting 
Snape to promise to kill Dumbledore." Snape's thinking, "I wonder 
what I just dramatically promised to do? Whatever it is, it's 
probably evil and I might be dead by the end of the year. Oh well." 
The man just made a suicide pact because he thought it might make 
the kid who's fanboyed him for 5 years maybe a little more likely to 
open up to him.

I admit it pains me you have no opinion on the Vanishing Cabinet 
issue. It would probably pain me more if you held the opposite 
opinion of me, but it's still to me like somebody saying, "I have no 
opinion on the issue of whether it was Peter or Sirius who was the 
Secret Keeper. Canon and fan theory is totally equal.

> Magpie:
> That particular turnaround turned up a pretty weak flaw  there. 
Snape's 
> playing the part of the loyal DE throughout the scene, and  
shutting Narcissa 
> up (out of loyalty) is an easy, perfectly in character  thing for 
DE!Snape to 
> do. It's exactly in character with the persona he has  on that 
side. Snape is 
> the authority figure in the scene. Admonishing  Bellatrix 
is "siding" with 
> Narcissa. He's not siding with her. He's  establishing himself as 
the loyal 
> DE here before he offers her some  hope.
> 
> Unlike Clueless!Snape, Clued-in!Snape doesn't lose anything by  
putting off 
> the discussion for a few seconds. He gets two things out of the  
moment 
> instead of one (he can remind everyone of his DE loyalty and the  
power of 
> his position). It's only Clueless!Snape who throws something away  
by 
> shutting Narcissa up.
> 
> Nikkalmati
>  
> So the only reason to tell Narcissa to be quiet is to play the 
bully and  
> lord it over the two women before he reveals his overwhelming 
position of power  
> - the one who is in on LV's every plan?   If he really plays that 
part  with 
> the DEs, I doubt Narcissa would have come to him for help.

Magpie:
Why does he need more of a reason (though he could certainly be 
making things a little better for Narcissa by doing it too)?
He's lording it over Bella openly to bother her throughout the scene-
-it's hard to miss. Playing this role is what keeps Snape alive--
here you seem to be suggesting he must be letting the mask slip to 
Narcissa. Why would you doubt Narcissa would come to him for help if 
he played his part with the DEs? She isn't put off by someone being 
a DE--mostly everyone she knows is. Being a loyal DE doesn't mean 
Snape can't still be someone she considers an ally, someone who 
might help her because he cares about Lucius and Draco. Narcissa 
knows that coming to Snape is a risk, a risk she's taking because 
she's desperate. She hopes he will help her because he cares about 
Lucius and Draco. All three of them still feel they all have to make 
gestures of honor to the Dark Lord. Seems to me that's a big theme 
of this story, that you've got these DEs who have better feelings 
and are having to work around their allegience because of them. The 
three of them are stuck in this life they've chosen--gestures of 
loyalty are probably regular occurrences.

The moment of Snape shutting Narcissa up isn't that important in 
this scenario--it fits nicely in with his long explanations of his 
DE activities. It's important in the scenario where Snape is 
bluffing, trying to find out what's going on, because it goes 
directly against his goal. Even if I accept that Snape wants to keep 
Bella from thinking Narcissa just blabbed the plan to Snape he 
doesn't have to cut her off there. He fixes that in the next moment 
by saying he already knew and, as you said, Bellatrix isn't going to 
challenge LV on that.
 
-m