CHAPDISC: HBP 29, The Phoenix Lament

horridporrid03 horridporrid03 at yahoo.com
Tue Jan 23 23:30:37 UTC 2007


No: HPFGUIDX 164095

> >>Dungrollin:
> CHAPTER DISCUSSIONS: Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince,       
> Chapter 29, The Phoenix Lament

> <snip of summary>

> Discussion questions:
> 1. This chapter is a nice opportunity for JKR to show us a variety 
> of characters' reactions to the same emotional upheaval - 
> Dumbledore's death. Did any of their reactions particularly inspire 
> sympathy in you? Which character reacted most similarly to you? Is 
> that character one you normally sympathise or identify with? 

Betsy Hp:
Hmm, I suppose Lupin's stunned disbelief best echoed my reaction.  
(Yes, I know, heavy forshadowing from Vow, only an idiot wouldn't 
have expected it... I read fast, okay? ::end defensive postering::)  
But my biggest sympathy went to Hagrid.  I think he probably had the 
purest love for Dumbledore and it was rather like watching a small 
child be told their parent is dead, IMO.

> 2. (Take off your DDM!Snape hats for this one, please.) In this 
> chapter, McGonagall and Tonks ask the same questions that fans have 
> been asking for years, namely: what did Snape tell Dumbledore to 
> make him trust him? Do you think, given Lupin, McGonagall and 
> Tonks's astonishment at Harry's story, that *even if Snape really 
> has* betrayed the Order and rejoined Voldemort, there still must 
> have been more than a `tale of remorse' to how he hoodwinked 
> Dumbledore? 

I'm very good at "let's pretend!", so yes, ESE!Snape: would his story 
as told by Harry have fooled Dumbledore?  Um... no.  Hell, no. N.O.  
Never in a million, billion, trillion years could I ever see 
Dumbledore pulled in with a "I caused the death of some great people, 
but I'm really, *really* sorry."  No way.  Never.  So yeah, there 
must be something more to the story there. <g>

> How do you think ESE!Snape (or similar variants) could have        
> convinced him?

Dumbledore is pretty sly.  I don't see him as someone easily 
tricked.  (I think it's wise to keep in mind that the "giver of 
second chances" story is a Death Eater one, IIRC.)  So the story 
would need to be good.  Especially to earn *complete* trust.  Snape 
would need to have started with a truth, I think.  Perhaps build an 
early friendship with Lily Evans into something more than what it 
actually was.  And I think he'd have to shed some blood, frankly, 
putting actions to words.

The clever bit would come from not overplaying his hand.  Doing all 
he can to protect Harry but at the same time making no secret of his 
contempt for the boy.  Damn.  That'd make a fairly kickass villain, 
yes?  I mean, Voldemort would be nothing to Snape.  Tom couldn't play 
Dumbledore, after all. 

> What themes that the books have already visited would Snape's tale 
> (and the fact that it was fake) resonate with, and how could his   
> ability to fool Dumbledore reflect upon Harry's story?

The issue here is, I can't think of any themes an ESE!Snape would 
reflect.  Not that have been in the story all ready.  I also don't 
see how an ESE!Snape adds anything to Harry's story.  It turns what I 
see as a tale of growth into the Emperor's New Clothes.  Which I 
don't see as the story JKR is telling.  So this is the place where 
it's hard to continue the play-acting.  ESE!Snape belongs in a 
different story altogether. (IMO, of course. <g>)

> 3. Assuming Hermione's account of events in Snape's office is 
> accurate, what do you make of her and Luna's gullibility? Are you 
> annoyed that they didn't realise immediately that Snape had 
> stupefied Flitwick and try to stop him?

Gosh, no.  It'd have been annoying if they *had* suspected Snape.  A 
bit too deus ex machina for my tastes since no suspicion of Snape on 
their parts had been suggested before.

> Since Ron, Neville and Ginny weren't much more use when confronted 
> by the Peruvian Darkness Powder, and only made it through the fight 
> because of the Felix Felicis, have your views on how useful the DA 
> really was changed?

No.  But then I've always seen the DA as flawed from the start 
because Slytherin wasn't included.  The Hat has already informed us 
that Hogwarts won't operate at full strength and won't be able to 
overthrow the evil that threatens it until the Houses act in 
concert.  Without Slytherin the DA could never (and will never) rise 
above a study club.

> 4. What do you make of McGonagall saying (of Snape) "He must have 
> known a spell we didn't [
] After all, he was the Defence against 
> the Dark Arts teacher?" 
> <snip>

Reading through your excellent summary all of McGonagall's actions 
took on a rather sinister light, IMO.  She stops the Phoenix song, 
interrogates Harry, and in this instance seems to protest too 
much.  "It was a Super Secret Barrier!!"  I don't know, I could be 
reading too much into it.  (I've long loved the idea of ESE!
McGonagall just for the incredibly cool twist it'd be.)  But it is 
odd that she jumps to the DADA knowledge theory.

Of course, it could simply be that McGonagall knows Transfiguration 
and not much else.  All other disciplines are Greek to her and anyone 
who knows DADA is strangely gifted.  Or something.

> 5. Molly doesn't give one single sign that she cares at all that 
> Dumbledore's dead, she doesn't react when McGonagall assures Arthur 
> that it's true, nor does she ask Harry or the others if they're all 
> right; she only has eyes for Bill. Do you find that surprising?

No.  Molly is pretty single-minded about her family.  If one of them 
is injured that's all she's going to focus on. 

> How do you interpret her different reactions to the dramas at the   
> ends of CoS, GoF and HBP, and how do they reflect upon her         
> assertion in OotP that Harry is as good as her son? 

That "as good as" does not mean "is".  Molly likes Harry.  And her 
heart is of course touched by the poor little orphan story attached 
to him.  But she's never treated Harry like family.  (Not to say that 
she hasn't treated him well.)  And if the choice came down to Harry 
or a Weasley, Molly wouldn't hesitate.  Not for a second.  Which is 
not a new opinion of mine.

> 6. In ch5 p92 (UK ed.) Molly says (of Bill and Fleur) "It was the 
> same last time he was powerful, people eloping right left and 
> centre –" yet Lupin seems here to be an exception, holding out 
> against this all-too-human reaction in times of war. Do you find 
> this consistent with his character?

Good lord, yes.  Lupin is Mr. Detached.  He'd definitely react to 
stress by pulling away rather than clinging to.

> Given the close friends he has lost, do you understand him wanting 
> to keep Tonks at arm's length, or do you agree with Molly that he's 
> being ridiculous?

Lord, save me from ever agreeing with Molly! <g>  Given the "marriage 
bug" that bit before, I think it actually makes sense for Lupin to 
question Tonks' sincerity.  He may worry that she's going to tie 
herself down with him because of the stress of the times.  Last thing 
he'd ever want to do to some poor girl.

Oh, and let me add that if I were Tonks I'd worry a bit about 
Remus "anything to please" Lupin being bullied into marrying me.  I'd 
take a moment to question him *away* from the massive amount of peer-
pressure that was the hospital wing.  

> How does his behaviour regarding Tonks compare with Harry's later   
> break-up with Ginny?

It doesn't, IMO.  Lupin is deciding to not *marry* someone.  Harry is 
breaking off a Spring fling.  Plus, it looked more like Lupin did a 
full on breakup, whereas Harry wasn't quite as definitive.  Ginny 
still has reason to think they'll get back together when everything 
is over.

> 7. Do you think that the fact that Dumbledore's portrait is        
> sleeping peacefully and looking untroubled is significant? If so,   
> what do you think it signifies, and if JKR had wanted to signify   
> the opposite, how do you think she would have done it? 

I do think JKR wanted to leave the impression that Dumbledore was 
ready for his next big adventure.  I suppose if she'd really wanted 
to mess with Harry's head she could have had Dumbledore staring wild-
eyed into space muttering "The horror! The horror!" <g> 

> 8. What do you make of McGonagall's statement about closing the 
> school: "
 I must say that Professor Dumbledore's murder is more 
> disturbing to me than the idea of Slytherin's monster living 
> undetected in the bowels of the castle
" Do you find this statement 
> surprising? Do you agree with it? Do you think it might reflect the 
> fact that she was a student at Hogwarts the first time the Chamber 
> opened? Do you think it reflects JKR's opinion?

Dumbledore was the best of them.  And he was struck down.  It is a 
bit more scary and immediate than realizing that a Basilisk had been 
kept in the basement.  After all, look at the creatures Hagrid's 
imported to the back yard.

> 9. What do you make of Slughorn's reaction to Dumbledore's death, 
> his shock at Snape's culpability, his ambivalence about the school 
> reopening, and his seeming reluctance that the students should stay 
> for the funeral? How does this compare with his manner with 
> Dumbledore in chapter four? If the school reopens, do you think he 
> will stay on as potions master and head of Slytherin, and do you 
> think Dumbledore's death will affect his decision?

I liked his shock at Snape's betrayal.  It was nice to see that 
Snape's old Head of House thought better of him.  And it makes 
perfect sense that he was so shaken.  He'd come out of hiding because 
he believed in Dumbledore's ability to protect him.  Now that's all 
changed.  So I don't know if he'll be there in the Fall.  Though for 
that matter, I'm not sure that the school will open.

> 10. Do you think Harry was right not to tell McGonagall where he 
> went with Dumbledore?

Absolutely.  If Dumbledore had fully trusted McGonagall she'd have 
already known about the horcruxes.

> Would you have had the courage (or stubbornness) to do the same at 
> his age?

Heh.  I'd have had the smart-ass-ness to do the same.  I *lived* to 
question teachers at that age.  They loved me. <g> (Seriously, some 
of them really did.)

> Do you think that he did what Dumbledore would have wanted?

Absolutely.

> McGonagall will almost certainly ask Dumbledore's portrait where he 
> took Harry when it wakes up; what do you think it will tell her?   
> Since all the portraits are sworn to help the current head, do you 
> think they will tell her about the horcruxes?

Who says McGonagall will be headmistress? <eg>  I'm not sure how 
knowledge about the horcruxes would help any new Head of Hogwarts 
with their job.  It doesn't seem to have much to do with leading the 
school.  And that might be the loophole.

> If they refused, do you think she has the potential to turn into an 
> Umbridge, or worse?

Since I'm always up for a bit of ESE!McGonagall theorizing, I could 
see that version of McGonagall coming out.  However, a good 
McGonagall wouldn't need the trappings of power Umbridge was after.  
She has enough confidence in her status and ability.  So I think a 
good McGonagall would be a bit annoyed, but get on with what she 
*can* do.

> 11. Do you find it surprising that McGonagall didn't ask how Harry 
> & co. knew that Malfoy was in the room of requirement? Harry didn't 
> tell her what he knows about the Unbreakable Vow either (despite    
> the fact that it didn't have anything to do with the Horcruxes). Do 
> you think she will find out, and if she did how do you think she    
> would react? What story about Malfoy and Snape should Harry be able 
> to piece together from the information he has?

Honestly, I don't see McGonagall playing that big of a part.  (Unless 
she's evil.)  So I don't see that we'll read an on-page scene where 
Harry fills her in on everything.

> 12. Hagrid is inconsolable; did you find his reaction to 
> Dumbledore's death moving?

Yes.  (see question 1.)

> We don't get to see what he thinks of Snape's apparent treachery,   
> do you think this omission is conspicuous?

Yes. <bg>

> Hagrid insists that he's staying whether the school opens or not,   
> because Hogwarts is his home, even though his hut has just been    
> burned down. Do you think he only wants to stay because of Grawp,   
> or do you think he might have another reason that we don't 
> know about? 

Loyalty to Dumbledore, I think.  Hagrid would never abandon 
Dumbledore's "kingdom".

> 13. McGonagall will refer the decision to close the school to the 
> governors; do you think that we have any canon to go on in guessing 
> whether Hogwarts will reopen or not?

Well, they were prepared to close Hogwarts after Mirtle died, and 
again when the students were getting petrified.  So yeah, unless 
someone has a pretty strong argument, I'll say the invasion of 
Hogwarts by Death Eaters and the murder of Dumbledore will encourage 
the govenors to close the school.

> Do you think that JKR ought to tell us one way or another before   
> book 7?

I think she ought not.  I'd prefer to find out via DH than a press 
release.

> 14. Do you find any of the characters' reactions to Dumbledore's 
> death suspicious? Do you think that we may find out something in 
> book 7 which will make us view this hospital-wing scene in a 
> different light (even if you can't imagine what it is yet)?

If there's going to be an ESE character (Ever so Evil: secretly 
working for the baddies while the whole time we thought they were 
good) than there'll *have* to be a re-examination of the hospital 
scene.  I've read some credible arguments showing Lupin's reaction to 
be suspect.  And some questions about McGonagall have been raised as 
well.

> 15. Did it surprise you that there was no mention of the 
> Headmasters' and Headmistresses' portraits' reactions to McGonagall 
> asking where Harry went with Dumbledore? They've often been vocal   
> in the past when Harry and Dumbledore were alone together; is their 
> silence in this scene conspicuous? How do you think Phineas 
> Nigellus, for example, reacted to news of Dumbledore's death, and 
> when did he hear? 

I'm not sure I'd say I was surprised.  I don't think their silence 
registered.  But I will say I think it might speak to McGonagall not 
being ratified by the Govenors yet.

I doubt Nigellus will be as emotional as he was about Sirius.  Just 
another headmaster joining the wall.  Though I expect a bit of 
curiosity as to the state of the "plan".

> 16. "And he knew, without knowing how he knew it, that the phoenix 
> had gone, had left Hogwarts for good, just as Dumbledore had left 
> the school, had left the world 
 had left Harry." Did you find this 
> ending to the chapter poignant? Does it wear off after the sixth re-
> read? If we see Fawkes again in book 7, do you think we will get to 
> know him as a character in his own right, or will he always be 
> associated with and symbolise Dumbledore?

Hee!  I haven't done a sixth re-read, so it's not worn off yet.  And 
yes, Fawkes will always (I think) be associated with Dumbledore.  
Even if he (for example) became Snape's, it'd suggest a benediction 
by Dumbledore.

Thanks, Dungrollin!  Great questions.

Betsy Hp





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