Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 164131

> Betsy Hp:
> Yes, exactly.  Never has any character in Potterverse forgiven 
> someone (in the true sense of the word) without that person having 
> done *something* to show that they'd earned that forgivness.  Not 
> even Dumbledore takes that sort of action.  At least, not that I've 
> seen.
> 
> Dumbledore doesn't forgive Tom Riddle; he holds Tom responsible for 
> all of his actions.  And Dumbledore doesn't truly forgive Draco.  
He 
> leaves a door open for Draco to walk through, yes.  He encourages 
> Draco to choose a different path.  But Dumbledore doesn't suggest 
> that Draco may now forget about any past wrongs he's done; that 
> Dumbledore has washed that sin all away.  *Action* is required of 
> Draco.

Alla:

Are we talking about different definitions of forgiveness, maybe? 
Because semantics so often seemed to be the reason of 
misunderstandings I run into.

I mean, I see what Dumbledore did to Draco is complete and absolute 
forgiveness. Otherwise, I would have seen Dumbledore talking that 
Draco deserves to be punished, not come to hiding with his family.

No talking about Draco almost killing two students or planning 
Dumbledore's assasination as something that needs to be punished. 
What is this if not forgiveness?

And Tom Riddle? Dumbledore may have certainly hold LV responsible for 
his actions, but he seems to me to very actively **not** hold Tom 
responsible for what he did before he came to Hogwarts, clean plate 
and all that. You do not see it as forgiveness?

Betsy Hp:
> (Something Dumbledore does do is detach a person's evil actions 
from 
> himself.  IOWs, Dumbledore doesn't allow Tom's evilness to threaten 
> or alarm him.  Is that a sort of forgiveness?  I'm not sure, 
> honestly.)

Alla:

IMO it is. but I guess this is agree to disagree moment.
 
Betsy Hp:
> Gosh, not even Snape (seen as loyal by Dumbledore) gets a scene in 
> which Dumbledore suggests that all is forgiven.

Alla:

Well, sure we see no scene like that, but IMO it is implied very 
strongly when DD tells Harry how remorseful Snape was, that was the 
greatest regret of his life, etc. 


Betsy Hp: 
> And one thing the books certainly don't do is encourage anyone to 
> forgive evil, if Voldemort equals evil. (And the way JKR strips him 
> of any sort of humanity suggests that he comes pretty darn close, 
> IMO).  So I'm confused as to how an evil Snape should somehow be up 
> for forgivness.  I'm not sure what might have forshadowed such a 
> thing.

Alla:

I think the books do not encourage to forgive Voldemort, but not the 
evil itself, or the other characters that represent it. Per JKR 
Voldemort is a sociopath, basically nothing can help him IMO.

What foreshadows such thing? For example Dumbledore offering to take 
Lucius in hiding as well. Lucius Malfoy somehow deserves to go to 
hiding instead of Azkaban? What is it if not blank forgiveness?


 
> > >>Alla:
> > <snip>
> > Keep in mind again that I am not talking about strictly evil 
Snape, 
> > but just any Snape, who is less than fully DD!M.
> > <snip>
> 
> Betsy Hp:
> Then you're changing the rules.  I was told to imagine ESE!Snape.  
> And I did.  However, playing along... <g> I suppose this version of 
> Snape is only slightly evil?  His mother beat him and that's why he 
> became a murderer? Again, what in the books suggests that Harry 
> forgiving such a man is a theme JKR is working on showing?  I 
> honestly don't see anything.

Alla:

Sorry for being unclear, but even though I started talking about Evil 
Snape as sort of umbrella for all Snapes that Harry may forgive and 
grow character wise, I certainly mentioned that for that Snape does 
not even have to be evil, anything less than full DD!M. Does that 
make sense?

This is from my post yesterday:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/164109

"I mean Snape does not even have to be completely evil here, he can
be anything but complete DD!M, he can be Grey, LID, OFH, anything,
but perfect Snape."

Again, not denying that my original question was how Harry would not 
grow if he forgives Evil Snape, but I included other varieties in the 
same post, no?


Betsy Hp:
> This flavor Snape is as much a copy of Peter Pettigrew as ESE!Snape 
> is a copy of Voldemort.  Harry does not, and is not encouraged to, 
> forgive Peter.  So why would he forgive Snape?

Alla:

But, but I stated the reasons. He may forgive Snape because he can 
see Snape from Lily eyes, because despite the fact that Snape had 
done some major major wrongs, he also did some good things, something 
Harry can empathise with or something like that.


 
Betsy Hp:
<SNIP>
> Hmm... I suppose Alla is thinking that the remorse, redemption, 
> rebirth phase of (anything but DDM!)Snape's story will all get 
> crammed into DH?  For one, I don't think it'll fit.  For another, 
if 
> Snape has been meant to be exactly what Harry saw him as throughout 
> the previous books, it seems to be piling too many themes on 
Snape's 
> poor shoulders.  And finally, it puts too much growth onto Snape.  
> Snape will be where the action is, while Harry doesn't grow too 
much 
> at all.

Alla:

What growth of Snape? In this scenario he would still be the same 
man, just Harry would see **some** good things that Snape did in the 
past and that would help Harry undergo some major growth where Harry 
would be able to see something good that Snape did **in the past** 
which will help Harry to forgive.


Betsy Hp:
> However, if most of Snape's redemption has taken place off-screen 
and 
> Harry learns about it on-screen, the action will all be on Harry's 
> side.  Which is why I don't see any flavor but DDM!Snape (not to be 
> confused with perfect!Snape) as fitting into Harry's story.

Alla:

Yes, sure Snape's good things would had to be off screen, I mean 
Harry would just learn about them, even if they take place in the 
present and the action of forgiving is still on Harry.


Betsy Hp:
> Of course, my view completely changes when we look towards a DDM!
> Snape.  Because *that's* a Snape that I can see Harry needing to 
> forgive.  Snape has treated Harry badly, and Harry does need to let 
> his anger at such treatment go.  
<SNIP>
>> *That's* the sort of forgiveness I can see occuring in the "Harry 
> grows up" story line.  But not forgiveness of evil.  Whether that 
> evil is straight-up (Snape as Voldemort) or whiny (Snape as Peter).

Alla:

Okay, you can see this sort of forgiveness occuring, I just do not 
see how JKR is prevented from showing another sort of forgiveness.

The one which DD gave to his assassin to be and the one who almost 
killed two students. The one that DD gave to the merciless bully of 
kids in the orphanage. The one that DD was ready to give to Lucius 
and Narcissa. I mean, is it not the forgiveness of evil? IMO it is.

And since Harry is supposed to learn DD lessons, I can absolutely see 
Harry practicing on Snape.


Betsy Hp:
> [An aside: This was a fairly hard post to write for some reason. 
> Partly, I think, because I tried to seperate out my personal 
beliefs 
> from the themes I see in the actual books.  I'm not sure how 
> successful I was on that, but for that reason I didn't respond to 
the 
> posts that talked about Forgivness in and of itself -- though I did 
> read them.  Just so you all know. <g>]
>
Alla:

Sorry about that? Being hard to write I mean.