[HPforGrownups] Would Harry forgiving Snape be character growth for him? Re: CHAPDISC: HBP 29,

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 164135

> Alla:
>
> Are we talking about different definitions of forgiveness, maybe?
> Because semantics so often seemed to be the reason of
> misunderstandings I run into.
>
> I mean, I see what Dumbledore did to Draco is complete and absolute
> forgiveness. Otherwise, I would have seen Dumbledore talking that
> Draco deserves to be punished, not come to hiding with his family.
>
> No talking about Draco almost killing two students or planning
> Dumbledore's assasination as something that needs to be punished.
> What is this if not forgiveness?

Magpie:
I don't mean to speak up for Betsy again but I'm jumping in because this was 
the same question I was asking reading her post. I think the thing about 
Dumbledore and Draco is that it's true he doesn't talk about punishment for 
his crimes--he actually says "no real harm has been done."

But I also think that part of the reason he can do that is he sees the kid 
suffering and so doesn't feel like he has to do that. I think what Betsy may 
be referring to is the fact that Dumbledore offers Draco the choice to say 
he doesn't want to kill for Voldemort. It's not the most active of choices, 
but it's saying No to Voldemort. He can offer to forgive Draco only for 
trying to kill him--only Ron and Katie and their families can forgive Draco 
for the other things.

Alla:>
> And Tom Riddle? Dumbledore may have certainly hold LV responsible for
> his actions, but he seems to me to very actively **not** hold Tom
> responsible for what he did before he came to Hogwarts, clean plate
> and all that. You do not see it as forgiveness?

Magpie:
Hmmm...I guess I would say: what's to forgive? I mean, for Dumbledore? 
Because he wasn't hurt by Tom before. Can Dumbledore forgive for someone 
else? I feel like it's a slightly different thing there. I'd describe it 
again as giving a second chance rather than forgiving him, because it's not 
Dumbledore's right to forgive someone for harm done to someone else (like 
wtih Ron and Katie).

I think that's the distinction I'd make in all these things. You can only 
forgive trespasses against yourself. In a general way Snape did things 
against Dumbledore's side, but he's not forgiving Snape for a wound against 
himself. He definitely offers to forgive Draco for trying to kill him and 
agreeing to kill him, but there I think he understands Draco's position and 
sees remorse. Draco has to accept the offer, which brings some action with 
it. It's not like if Draco skipped off to be a DE I'd imagine Dumbledore 
shouting after him, "I forgive you Draco!"

>Alla:
> What foreshadows such thing? For example Dumbledore offering to take
> Lucius in hiding as well. Lucius Malfoy somehow deserves to go to
> hiding instead of Azkaban? What is it if not blank forgiveness?

Magpie:
Of Lucius? I don't think so. I think that offer was all about trying to save 
Draco. Where Voldemort uses his family against him, Dumbledore doesn't make 
him choose between not killing and saving his family.

> Alla:
>
> But, but I stated the reasons. He may forgive Snape because he can
> see Snape from Lily eyes, because despite the fact that Snape had
> done some major major wrongs, he also did some good things, something
> Harry can empathise with or something like that.

Magpie:
But doesn't that suggest Snape's earning the forgiveness, or is being 
forgiven due to understanding? I mean, if Lily saw the good in Snape there 
must be good in Snape. She doesn't seem like she just went around forgiving 
everyone for no reason. If Snape was ESE, would Lily forgive him for killing 
her, beyond just not wasting time hating him? I don't think JKR would be so 
interested in that, based on the girl we saw in the Pensieve. Would she 
forgive Snape for trying to get her son murdered? That I definitely don't 
think she would do--she might forgive him if he felt true remorse, but I 
don't know how he'd look through Lily's eyes if he was just killing her son 
with no remorse.

> Alla:
>
> Okay, you can see this sort of forgiveness occuring, I just do not
> see how JKR is prevented from showing another sort of forgiveness.
>
> The one which DD gave to his assassin to be and the one who almost
> killed two students. The one that DD gave to the merciless bully of
> kids in the orphanage. The one that DD was ready to give to Lucius
> and Narcissa. I mean, is it not the forgiveness of evil? IMO it is.

Magpie:
I don't think it was forgiveness for any of them except Draco, whom he could 
I think see suffereing, and see that he did not want to do this--and whom he 
could forgive for a specific bad action against himself. He offered to 
forgive that by offering Draco the chance to make the right choice *now.* 
Tom Riddle and Snape I think he more gave a second chance. Lucius and 
Narcissa just lucked out that Dumbledore was willing to help them for 
Draco's sake (or perhaps to neutralize them).

-m