Question from a newbie: Taking memories out of your head?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 164246

Dana wrote:
<snip>
 I am far from sure that the James/ Snape interaction was the thing
Snape was hiding and to some extent with this quote I am not even sure
he was hiding anything because the memory removal apparently does not
include removing feelings as well <snip>
> But still it makes it less presumable that he removed them to
control his feelings about James and thus being able to deal with
Harry less emotional. Looking at Harry alone would be able to invoke
these emotions he would not even have to remember the visual memory in
order to tap into these feelings; we have six books of proof of that.
The brain is not an open book so you can not stroll around it and see
everything one likes to see. Legillimency (sp?) is not mind reading
but to some extent the pensieve is just that because you can see
everything even if the person themselves are not aware it was there.
> 
> I am also not convinced he was trying to hide these images from LV
> because Snape would have to take them out every time he would have
> going to see him and these memories where already there before Snape
> decided to switch sides so if there was anything interesting there
> to see LV has already seen it. Also because the pensieve is not his
> own and if these memories where so sensitive they needed hiding,
> than he would have stored them a long time ago because he would
> never know when LV would show up again or when he would want Snape
> to come see him, it is even factual you do not need a pensive to
> remove them at all but even if you did, if Snape was so into hiding
> and extracting his memories you would think he would own a pensieve
> himself but that is not how he hid things as we know from canon,
> occlumency is how he hid things from LV so there is no reason for
> him to think Harry would be a greater threat to discover these
> specific memories even with LV in his head. If Snape would have
> decided after the break in thing that something needed to be removed
> I would have bought it but he is doing this before lesson 1.
> 
> I am sorry for rambling on and not responding to each post
> separately but to me it makes no sense why he would extract them to
> prevent Harry seeing them and I certainly do not believe he removed
> them to prevent LV seeing them. There is no canon evidence that
> Snape removed these memories for LV before and we know he is a
> *suburb* occlumens which makes removal of memories unnecessary. Even
> with the oops shield charm, Harry only got a few glimpses. He was
> never a threat to any of his memory not even this one. Also and
> maybe I have missed this in one of the post I assume Snape is very
> aware of what a pensieve is, so I totally do not understand its
> presence because in a bottle these memories where not accessible to
> anyone but with a pensieve it is like saying just push the play
> button and watch the show. JMHO

Carol responds:
I think most of us on this list are familiar with the way a Pensieve
works (it enables a person to observe a memory, or a collection of
memories, more clearly than if the memory were in a person's head, and
it provides an objective record of what happened, including things
that the person himself was not aware of at the time). Pensieves are
apparently not used for long-term storage; such memories are placed in
 vials for later use. (I wonder if they can be retrieved and placed
back in the bottle? we don't see what happens to, say, Bob Ogden's
memory or Hokey's after Harry and DD explore it.)

Pensieves appear to have more than one use. Dumbledore uses his in GoF
to remove a collection of related memories to explore their
connections. (I think he's trying to figure out who put Harry's name
in the Goblet of Fire by exploring memories related to the possible
suspects: Karkaroff, Barty Sr., etc., but that's a topic for another
post.) He also uses it to show Harry memories, his own and other
people's, some of which they enter and some of which they only
partially observe through revolving figures speaking out of
context--Trelawney, Caractacus Burke, Bertha Jorkins, et al.) Clearly,
Snape is putting his memories into Dumbledore's borrowed Pensieve for
some other purpose that relates to the Occlumency lessons. He isn't
showing them to Harry and he isn't studying them. He carefully puts
them back in at the end of each Occlumency lesson.

While I certainly agree that Snape does not routinely take out his
memories and place them in a Pensieve to conceal them from Voldemort
(as you say, he uses his superb Occlumency skills for this purpose),
it seems to me quite logical that he would want to conceal them, or
any part of them, from Harry, who is certainly not a Legilimens but
could accidentally reveal part of one of these memories with a
Protego. If Harry saw it, it's possible that Voldemort would see it
because of the mind link between Harry and Voldemort. So Snape is
taking no chances, protecting a few particular memories that he
ordinarily shields from LV using Occlumency, or perhaps has no need to
shield if Legilimency reveals the thoughts at the forefront of a
person's mind, such as Harry's Potions book. As you say, Snape has
informed us that the mind is not a book that the Legilimens can
explore at will. So Snape's use of a Pensieve to temporarily store
(not "sieve" and study) these memories appears to be highly unusual.

I can think of only one reason why he would do so; he's afraid that
they'll interfere in some way with the lessons. Your idea that he
doesn't want the *emotions* associated with the so-called worst memory
to affect him during the lessons is interesting. While he still
clearly dislikes Harry and insists on being called "Professor" or
"Sir," it's interesting that he's focusing on Harry and the Voldemort
link here. He never once insults Harry or refers to James. Instead, he
comes close to praising Harry ("For a first attempt, that is not as
bad as it might have been"). He tells Harry what Legilimency is, what
Occlumency is, what Harry has to do to protect himself from the
Legilimens spell. He seems most concerned (or angry) when memories
that are not Harry's own show up in the lessons ("How did that man and
that room come to be in your head, Potter?") This is as close as Snape
comes to fair, objective teaching--if only Harry himself weren't so
full of anger and distrust. And, of course, Harry's inability to
resist entering the Pensieve and Snape's subsequent anger brings the
lesson to a disastrous end.

I still think that Snape was keeping the memories from Harry, and his
rage when his privacy is violated seems to me to support this view,
but it's just possible that removing the memories also removed the
emotions associated with them and made him better able to focus on the
lessons themselves and not on his dislike of Harry. But for Snape's
motive to be to control his emotions in dealing with Harry? It seems
unlikely but Possible. I think he normally uses Occlumency to keep his
emotions under control. From the first time Harry looks into them,
they look like dark, empty tunnels--as if he's shielding his thoughts
and emotions at all times. But Occlumency fails him on two or three
occasions, when the mask slips and the rage is revealed, and all of
them have to do with James. So, for one reason or other, best to keep
James out of the Occlumency lessons.

As for those other memories, it's a safe bet that one of them was the
eavesdropping incident, which he would want to conceal from harry at
all costs. The other is a toss-up in my mind, either the so-called
Prank involving Teen!Snape and werewolf!Lupin or his coming to
Dumbledore to offer to spy for him. I'm beginning to think that
Voldemort by this time knew about Snape's tale of remorse (which he
believed was false), if not about Snape's spying for Dumbledore, so
probably it was the Prank. If so, all three memories related in some
way to James. 

Carol, now fairly certain that it's all about James and that the
memories were concealed from Harry specifically rather than from LV
through Harry