Question from a newbie: Taking memories out of your head?

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 164264

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "justcarol67" <justcarol67 at ...> 
wrote:
>
Carol wrote:
>I think most of us on this list are familiar with the way a Pensieve
>works (it enables a person to observe a memory, or a collection of
>memories, more clearly than if the memory were in a person's head, 
and
>it provides an objective record of what happened, including things
>that the person himself was not aware of at the time). Pensieves are
>apparently not used for long-term storage; such memories are placed 
in
>vials for later use. (I wonder if they can be retrieved and placed
>back in the bottle? we don't see what happens to, say, Bob Ogden's
>memory or Hokey's after Harry and DD explore it.)

<snip>

Dana now: 

It was not my intention to imply that most of you did not know what a 
pensieve is, but that it seems like Snape's knowledge of a pensieve 
seems to be underestimated. 

Carol wrote:
<snip> He isn'tshowing them to Harry and he isn't studying them. He 
>carefully puts
>them back in at the end of each Occlumency lesson. <snip>

Dana now: 

Well this is to some level precisely my point. Why is he using a 
pensieve? He has no intention to study the memories themselves. 
Also I think there are a lot more than 3 memories in Snape's head 
that remind him of James. They hated each other from the moment they 
laid eyes on each other. Snape's memory indicates they crossed paths 
before and it is no secret to Harry so even if Harry saw James 
flashing by when accidentally breaking into Snape's head than it 
would not have surprised him. Maybe made him curious but that's it. 
Also there would still have been a lot of memories of James to run 
into even with these 3 removed.  


>Carol Wrote:
<snip> it seems to me quite logical that he would want to conceal 
>them, or
>any part of them, from Harry, who is certainly not a Legilimens but
>could accidentally reveal part of one of these memories with a
>Protego. If Harry saw it, it's possible that Voldemort would see it
>because of the mind link between Harry and Voldemort. So Snape is
>taking no chances, protecting a few particular memories that he
>ordinarily shields from LV using Occlumency, or perhaps has no need 
to
>shield if Legilimency reveals the thoughts at the forefront of a
>person's mind, such as Harry's Potions book. As you say, Snape has
>informed us that the mind is not a book that the Legilimens can
>explore at will. So Snape's use of a Pensieve to temporarily store
>(not "sieve" and study) these memories appears to be highly unusual.
> <Big snip>

Dana now:

To me it doesn't seem quite logical because when Snape was in LV's 
camp these memories where already there and before the prophesy, 
there was no reason for Snape to conceal them at all. Only after the 
Potters became LV focus point might these memories have any interest 
due to the life dept to James but Harry already knows this and Snape 
also already knows Harry knows because he knows Harry has been told 
about the prank and that James pulled Snape out of it, even if he 
does not know Dumbledore already told Harry about the Life Dept issue 
of the story. LV already knows Snape changed sides maybe even on his 
own command so no big secret there and Harry knows Snape has been a 
DE. The Protego charm gives Harry precisely 3 flashes of Snape's 
memory and than Snape breaks it of. He is not even concerned with 
what Harry saw but he directly shifts his attention to the pensieve 
why? Harry surely can't access them from where he is standing? 

I snipped the rest of your post but do think you raised some 
interesting points but personally I am starting to wonder if the 
pensieve is Snape's back up plan more than a way to store these 
particular memories. Not from a ESE!Snape point of view and not from 
I want to hide these memories from sight point of view because they 
still are safer in his head but more a back up plan to stop the 
lessons when LV decides it is time to take over the scene. LV is 
planning the set-up of bringing Harry to the DoM for months and I do 
not think he would have stayed in the background and let Snape ruin 
his plan by teaching Harry occlumency. Of course I am speculating but 
Snape's surprise about the shield charm (does anyone know if Harry 
even knows this shield charm before this time?) and Harry's ability 
to look into Snape's head might have triggered Snape to think it 
might not have been Harry who broke in but LV.  It is also 
interesting to see that after this event Harry is at the DoM again 
instead of in his own memory. This was no memory of his own because 
before this time Harry could not get in but suddenly he finds himself 
beyond the first door. Snape is even anger with this than with Harry 
seeing a few flashes of his memories. I think Snape knows LV is there 
planting new images into his head and to me it seems that LV lets 
Snape witness this on purpose. 
I think by this time it is in Snape best interest to stop the lessons 
and not interfere with LV's plan. He certainly will not win any 
favors by teaching Harry to block him out. 
Another thing of interest is that it is said Montage used apparition 
to free himself and this while you can not apparate anywhere in or 
near Hogwarts but than finds himself stuck into a toilet. Although I 
can only imagine how funny it must have been to right the scene for 
JKR it contradicts what has been told to us over and over again that 
it is not possible to do this. It is also on the next lesson after 
the break in and the planting of new images, there haven't been any 
in between. Sure this memory might really have been Snape's worst 
memory but no other memory would have specifically granted Snape an 
excuse to quit the lessons. It is in essence a small sacrifice of 
dignity vs getting an angry LV on your back or even blowing your 
cover for it. And as we know Dumbledore buys the cover story that the 
strong resentment towards James was too great for Snape to overcome. 
So LV is happy, Dumbledore accepts the excuse and Snape is of the 
hook and after having witnessed Harry being tortured by the Dursley's 
it must be so gratifying to Snape to give this nice impression of 
James and Sirius the bullies of poor little Snivellus. It might even 
have been Sirius who triggered the idea to use this memory as decoy. 
You can not make me believe that a calculated man like Snape who is 
able to wiggle his ways between LV and Dumbledore and always comes 
out unharmed is suddenly so incompetent to forget to throw Harry out 
of his class room in case of an emergency? I also still do not buy 
that there would have been any reason to show Harry he is hiding 
something from him if he really wanted to hide it and the same goes 
for LV because if LV can see through Harry's eyes than Snape has some 
explaining to do why he is hiding something from LV. If Snape is such 
a bright and cleaver man than he surely knows better even if he 
thinks nothing much of Harry. He knows Harry is the most nosy person 
alive (well besides himself that is ;o). 
Personally I do think Snape wanted to have Harry learn occlumency and 
I do not believe he was trying to open Harry's mind but I do think 
Snape was calculated enough to leave a backdoor open incase LV 
decided to take matters into his own hands. For that matter I do 
think (and like) Neri's LID!Snape thesis a very plausible one if 
Snape could prevent LV from causing any danger to Harry, he honestly 
tries to help but he is not prepared to let this ordeal put him in a 
position without having a choice and endangering himself. It is even 
interesting to see that after the worst memory incident Snape is even 
more able to control himself towards Harry and just ignores him, this 
while the resentment should have been at its uttermost high. JMHO

Dana