What Harry "knows", Was Why we'll get no further revelations Snape was Evil

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 169853


colebiancardi: 
> In your opinion, of course.  The point I was making was that
> Dumbledore told Harry it had nothing to do with him & it was between
> Snape & DD.  Now, since Snape's deliverance of the prophecy to LV 
> did cause Harry's parents deaths.  That has a lot to do with Harry; 
> it isn't just between DD & Snape
<snip>

Dana:
DD never stated that it had nothing to do with Harry; he just stated 
that it was a matter between him and Professor Snape. 
And because DD never had any intention to ever reveal that 
information because he did not hold Snape responsible for LV's 
choices, it would never be anything else then between him and Snape. 
DD never revealed to anyone that it was Snape bringing the prophecy 
to LV and the only once that knew Snape was there that night were DD, 
Snape, the bartender and Trelawney but the later two probably did not 
know what it was about.  

Dana before:
> > DD did explain the reason for Snape's return in HBP when he 
> > specifically states he believed that it was Snape's greatest 
> > regret and the reason that he returned (HBP pg 513 UKed 
> > chapter "the seer overheard"). Harry's point of view has nothing 
> > to do with it because it does not change what DD said, we 
> > witnessed what DD said.

 colebiancardi:
> IMHO, no, DD didn't state that WAS the reason why Snape turned his
> back on LV and became a spy for Dumbledore.  Harry interrupted
> Dumbledore in mid-sentence - about the reason why he turned (not
> returned).  DD never stated that the "reason why Snape turned his 
> back on LV was the prophecy".  Harry's own POV does have a lot to 
> do with it, because he offered that lame excuse up at the end of 
> HBP to the others and they were kinda disbelieving it as well.
<snip>

Dana:
It specifically states that DD believed that it was Snape's reason 
for his *return* not turned. Harry does not stop DD in mid-sentence. 
He is talking about Snape greatest regret. Snape himself states the 
same thing in Spinner's end that he told DD a story of his deepest 
regret. JKR states that Snape told DD his story and DD believe it. 
Maybe it isn't all there is to it but her quote was before HBP came 
out and not after so at this point it might as well be all there is 
to it. 

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm

Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape?
JK Rowling replies -> Another excellent and non-answerable question. 
I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and 
Dumbledore believes it.

colebiancardi:
> huh?  You think that DD trusted Snape when he was a deatheater?  
> Where does Dumbledore state that?  DD knew Snape was a Deatheater - 
> in GoF, DD states that "Snape is no more of a Deatheater than I 
> am" - but this is after Snape turned his back on the Deatheaters.
<snip>

Dana:
Maybe I totally misread the books but didn't Snape returned to the 
side of good while he was a DE and still was a DE which made it 
possible for him to spy for DD? Snape came to DD before LV's downfall 
and him giving DD information is what made DD trust Snape. After that 
Snape didn't do anything specific for DD but was merely a teacher at 
his school. The trust issue comes from Snape's return to the side of 
good and DD trusted Snape enough to give him a job as a teacher.  
Snape was still in LV's service because otherwise Snape would never 
have lived long enough to take the teaching job because that too was 
started before LV's downfall. 

And if Snape was no longer in LV's service then he would never have 
been able to return to him at the end of GoF. Snape might or might 
not have been an active DE, after he went to DD but both LV and his 
fellow DEs still believed Snape to be a DE and only because of DD was 
Snape never charged with being one. 

colebiancardi:
> ok...So, the fact that LV would kill anyone who talked about it - 
> that is all about trust as well?
> 
> Again, LV doesn't trust Snape.  He questions him and he performs
> Legimins on Snape, which is why Snape has to guard himself with
> Occulmacy.  That doesn't sound like a trusting soul to me.

Dana:
Mhhh both Bella and Narcissa seem to think LV trusts Snape and 
Narcissa might have used it to boost Snape's ego but Bella surely did 
not and even she admits LV trusts Snape. LV's trust is not 
unconditional and he does not trust blindly and revokes trusts as 
easily as changing socks but that doesn't mean that he does not trust 
his DEs with specific information when he believes that DE to be 
loyal to him. His reasons to trust his followers has nothing to do 
with the way DD trusts people and breaking that trust surely has a 
lot more consequences then breaking DD's trust and thus all the more 
reason not to go about it lightly. 

colebiancardi:
> of course DD didn't use blackmail or an UV on Snape to entrust his
> loyalty.  But neither did DD take Snape at face value either.  DD
> isn't stupid;  Unlike Draco, DD recruited Snape to spy on LV and
> become a double agent.  Draco was just going to go into hiding. 
> Snape's loyalty had to be something more than a long face & a story
> about "remorse" over the prophecy.

Dana:
Well I disagree I think DD did take Snape at face value and because 
Snape did nothing to break that trust before LV's return to power, 
there was no reason for DD to re-evaluate that trust. 

Sorry but I disagree with you that DD recruited Snape to spy on LV. I 
believe Snape offered his service to DD so he could repay the debt he 
owed James and I believe DD took the offer as an indication that 
Snape truly wanted to help in the fight against LV and protecting the 
Potters. The former might have been true or false but the later was 
surely true because of the debt he owed James. Only at the end of GoF 
did DD send Snape back to LV. 
I believe that Snape only gave DD specific information concerning the 
Potters and nothing more then that. He never closed the door behind 
him and it even is specifically suggested that he held the door wide 
open by his association with Lucius. 

Also Snape specifically states that he was sent to spy on DD and if 
you look at the definition of a double spy then he only pretends to 
work for one party while actually working for the other (not for 
both) and mostly it are people who are captured or pretend to have 
defected and then are send back to spy on the camp of origin and they 
pretend to spy for the camp who send them there.  So in that case it 
is DD who send Snape to spy on LV which was Snape's camp of origin. 
So in the strictest sense Snape is pretending to spy for DD but is 
actually spying for LV and for what is said in canon this seemed to 
be more true then the other way around as Snape's information does 
nothing for the Order but it seemed to at least eliminate two Order 
Members and in HBP he helped to get ride of the only one LV ever 
feared. Makes you wonder doesn't it. Will need a really good excuse 
to iron that flat in my opinion and DD selling out his own Order 
Members so Snape can keep his cover with LV is not going to cut it 
with me because a man so against the killing of people would never 
give his spy the green light to provide a murderous lunatic with 
information that would lead to the death of the people who are 
fighting for his cause.  

I do not think there was more to the story of DD's trust in Snape. I 
might be proven wrong in DH but I actually do not believe it will be 
so because DD is no longer there to tell the story himself and why I 
think JKR included it in HBP. DD isn't stupid but that doesn't mean 
that he can't believe in a person that did not deserve to be believed 
in or not for the reasons DD believed in him. DD was very noble to 
give so much unconditional trust to Snape and it is not up to DD to 
live up to that trust but Snape's and DD might not have found 
sufficient evidence (although I believe he did start to worry in HBP 
and why he was so angry with Snape) to revoke that trust. Just 
because Harry questions that trust does not make it a good enough 
reason to stop trusting Snape. If that was the case then DD should 
have stopped trusting Lupin just because Snape said so. But yes, I do 
believe that DD made a critical error with Snape and that is he 
underestimated the power behind Snape's hatred. And again I do not 
thing we should question DD's trust in Snape but Snape's trust in DD. 
I think it is much more crucial then for whatever reason DD trusted 
Snape because like I stated above it is not up to DD to live up to 
the trust he gives but the person he gives it to. 

colebiancardi:
> WOW!  Snape is not responsible for the death of Sirius.  Snape has
> never tried to kill Lupin, and he had plenty of opportunities in PoA
> with the monthly potion.  Snape delivered 1/2 of the prophecy to LV,
> but by turning to DD, ensured his place, IMHO, that he was working
> against LV and tried to prevent the deaths of the Potters.

Dana:
Might I remind you that Snape did want to have Lupin soul sucked too? 
He could not mess with the potion for the simple fact that it would 
not kill Lupin but make him a danger to the student body and that it 
would implicate Snape as being the one who would have caused it. And 
the same goes for poisoning Lupin. 
Snape is not going to murder anyone that could lead to him as the 
perpetrator. If he wants them dead then he is surely not going to 
spend time in Azkaban for it. 

Snape claims to have helped in the disposal of Black himself and I do 
believe that he helped LV get Harry to the DoM and by notifying the 
Order it would be a sure thing that Sirius would never stay behind. I 
also believe that he tried all year without success to get Sirius out 
of hiding. Maybe there is still some merit in Harry thinking Sirius 
might be poisoned who knows. But Snape surely with his statement 
towards DD helped to set the stage for DD to blame Sirius for the 
whole events. 
And surely I still hold the theory that Kreacher had nothing to do 
with it and that the memory to implicate him as the one betraying 
Sirius and thus Harry was planted to lead DD away from the person 
that truly betrayed Harry and thus Sirius. But that is just again 
speculation. 


Alla:
> Hmmmm, Dana, I do not want you to be right - not because I have any
> sympathy for Snape, but because I find him much more fascinating and
> multilayered evil if he has some dignity and won't do something that
> pathetic, but I won't exclude the possibility <g>

Dana:
Well to be honest with you I do think he would do something as 
pathetic as that and he showed throughout the books how pathetic he 
truly is by bullying his students and especially Harry and Neville 
and to be honest with you I always felt that Snape's bullying of 
Neville was as personal as his bullying of Harry. Hatred truly does 
make people's mind work in a pathetical kind of way and wanting to 
take revenge CAN absorb people's minds in such a way that they will 
not rest till they have it. I never saw Snape as multilayered at all 
and I certainly do not see him having any dignity. I only saw a man 
absorbed by his hatred that even could not teach Harry something as 
important as occlumency because Harry witnessed his father and Sirius 
bully Snape. That to me is pathetic that you can't stand above 
something that happened 20 years ago. James is dead, Sirius was still 
a wanted criminal and spent most of his adult live behind bars and 
still Snape could not rise above it? 

I personally do not see why Snape's part in the story should be any 
bigger then a pathetic man that could never learn from his own 
mistakes because he blamed everybody else for not getting the live he 
thought he deserved? 

JMHO

Dana