What Harry "knows", Was Why we'll get no further revelations Snape was Evil

[colebiancardi]

No: HPFGUIDX 169857

 
> Dana:
> DD never stated that it had nothing to do with Harry; he just stated 
> that it was a matter between him and Professor Snape. 
> And because DD never had any intention to ever reveal that 
> information because he did not hold Snape responsible for LV's 
> choices, it would never be anything else then between him and Snape. 
> DD never revealed to anyone that it was Snape bringing the prophecy 
> to LV and the only once that knew Snape was there that night were DD, 
> Snape, the bartender and Trelawney but the later two probably did not 
> know what it was about.  
> 

colebiancardi:

yes, it IS a matter between DD & Snape.  Not Harry.  So, in my
opinion, that translates to - doesn't involve Harry, which doesn't
involve Harry's parents.  Snape did give up half the prophecy;  that I
am sure DD holds Snape responsible for.

 
> Dana:
> It specifically states that DD believed that it was Snape's reason 
> for his *return* not turned. Harry does not stop DD in mid-sentence. 
> He is talking about Snape greatest regret. Snape himself states the 
> same thing in Spinner's end that he told DD a story of his deepest 
> regret. JKR states that Snape told DD his story and DD believe it. 
> Maybe it isn't all there is to it but her quote was before HBP came 
> out and not after so at this point it might as well be all there is 
> to it. 
> 
> http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2004/0304-wbd.htm
> 
> Ali: Why specifically does Dumbledore trust Snape?
> JK Rowling replies -> Another excellent and non-answerable question. 
> I shall merely say that Snape has given Dumbledore his story and 
> Dumbledore believes it.

colebiancardi:

again, Harry does stop DD in mid-sentence.  If you look at the Am Ed
Hardcover of HBP:

"You have no idea of the remorse Professor Snape felt when he realized
how Lord Voldemort had interpreted the prophecy, Harry.  I believe it
to the be the greatest regret of his life and the reason that he
returned ---"
"But he's a very good Occlumens, isn't he, sir?" said Harry

p 549

the dashes tell me at least there is more to what DD was going to say.
 Also, DD states it is HIS belief, not what Snape told him.  So, yes,
I believe there is more to it and it hasn't been revealed.  If the
remorse is the only reason, I would think that to be very lame and DD
shouldn't have entrusted Snape to be spy for him.

 
> Dana:
> Maybe I totally misread the books but didn't Snape returned to the 
> side of good while he was a DE and still was a DE which made it 
> possible for him to spy for DD? Snape came to DD before LV's downfall 
> and him giving DD information is what made DD trust Snape. 
<snipping>

colebiancardi:

Snape was never "on the side of the good" before; he was just a
student.  He turned against LV and joined forces with DD's efforts. 
He remainded in the DE's camp, but once he joined forces with DD, he
was no longer a true "DE".  That was his cover.  So, DD didn't trust
Snape while Snape was really a DE.  DD trusted Snape after Snape
turned, not while Snape was on LV's side.


> Dana:
>After that 
> Snape didn't do anything specific for DD but was merely a teacher at 
> his school. The trust issue comes from Snape's return to the side of 
> good and DD trusted Snape enough to give him a job as a teacher.  
> Snape was still in LV's service because otherwise Snape would never 
> have lived long enough to take the teaching job because that too was 
> started before LV's downfall. 

colebiancardi:

again, Snape turned against LV before LV was defeated the first time
around.  We don't know when Snape turned - but we do know it was
before Sept of 1981, when DD gave Snape the job as a teacher at
Hogwarts, in order to give Snape his cover to LV.  Snape is a
double-agent at this point.  It may have occured during the summer,
for all we know.  It could have occured right before Harry's birth in
July of 1980.  We don't know when it happened, but Snape was a
double-agent working against LV and the DeathEaters.  He only kept
pretending to be a DE in order to spy for Dumbledore.  And we don't
know that Snape was "merely a teacher" at Hogwarts between Sept and
Oct 31, 1981.  Snape was still reporting to LV (feeding false info, I
would assume and gathering info) and then reporting his findings back
to DD.  It is what he has done since the end of GoF; I cannot imagine
why he wasn't doing this back then either.




> 
> Dana:And if Snape was no longer in LV's service then he would never
have 
> been able to return to him at the end of GoF. Snape might or might 
> not have been an active DE, after he went to DD but both LV and his 
> fellow DEs still believed Snape to be a DE and only because of DD was 
> Snape never charged with being one. 

colebiancardi:

Double-Agent:  A double agent is someone who pretends to spy on a
target organization on behalf of a controlling organization, but in
fact is loyal to the target organization. Double agents may be agents
of the target organization who infiltrate the controlling
organization, or may be previously loyal agents of the controlling
organization who have been captured and turned by the target; Double
agents are often used to transmit disinformation or to identify other
agents as part of counter-espionage operations. They are often very
trusted by the controlling organization, since the target organization
will give them true, but useless, information to pass along.

The term "double agent" is often used in popular media erroneously to
refer to someone acting simply as a spy or secret agent. A spy simply
relays information from a target to his or her controlling organization.

from Wikipedia, the quickest way to look things up!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_agent
 

so, if Snape is DDM, then he was only pretending to be a DE.  That is
why DD states that Snape used to be a DeathEater but is no longer one.

LV thinks that Snape is his man;  it works to his advantage to let DD
think that Snape is DD's man.

I am of the DDM!Snape, so I believe that Snape is truly loyal to
Dumbledore and not LV; but it can work either way.  Hence, the debates.

If Snape is LV's man, then he is a triple agent, not a double-agent -
again, from Wikipedia

A triple agent pretends to be a double agent for the target
organization, but in fact is working for the controlling organization
all along. Usually, he keeps the trust of the target organization by
feeding information to them that apparently is very important but is
in fact misleading or useless.

 acy.  That doesn't sound like a trusting soul to me.
> 
> Dana:
> Mhhh both Bella and Narcissa seem to think LV trusts Snape and 
> Narcissa might have used it to boost Snape's ego but Bella surely did 
> not and even she admits LV trusts Snape.

colebiancardi:

no, Bella did not trust Snape.  She trusts LV and because of her fear
of or love for him(LV), she will not speak  against LV - Snape caught
her there.  Bella never admits that LV trusts Snape; even after his
explainations in Spinner's End, she still is doubtful:

from Am Ed Hardcover, p31
"Bellatrix still looked unhappy, though she appeared unsure how best
to attack Snape best"
 
> 
> colebiancardi:
> > of course DD didn't use blackmail or an UV on Snape to entrust his
> > loyalty.  But neither did DD take Snape at face value either.  DD
> > isn't stupid;  Unlike Draco, DD recruited Snape to spy on LV and
> > become a double agent.  Draco was just going to go into hiding. 
> > Snape's loyalty had to be something more than a long face & a story
> > about "remorse" over the prophecy.
> 
> Dana:
> Well I disagree I think DD did take Snape at face value and because 
> Snape did nothing to break that trust before LV's return to power, 
> there was no reason for DD to re-evaluate that trust. 
> 
> Sorry but I disagree with you that DD recruited Snape to spy on LV. I 
> believe Snape offered his service to DD so he could repay the debt he 
> owed James <snipping the rest>

colebiancardi:

It could be that DD asked Snape to be spy for him as a test of trust
as well.  James wasn't in danger from LV;  Harry was.  The life-debt
was to James, not to Harry, so I am not sure how that was to repay the
debt to James.

 
> Dana: <snipping lots>
>   So in that case it 
> is DD who send Snape to spy on LV which was Snape's camp of origin. 
> So in the strictest sense Snape is pretending to spy for DD but is 
> actually spying for LV and for what is said in canon this seemed to 
> be more true then the other way around as Snape's information does 
> nothing for the Order but it seemed to at least eliminate two Order 
> Members and in HBP he helped to get ride of the only one LV ever 
> feared. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

colebiancardi:

nope, it doesn't make me wonder at all.  What you had defined was not
a double agent, but a triple agent (see above for defination).  
> Dana:
>  DD was very noble to 
> give so much unconditional trust to Snape and it is not up to DD to 
> live up to that trust but Snape's and DD might not have found 
> sufficient evidence (although I believe he did start to worry in HBP 
> and why he was so angry with Snape) to revoke that trust.

colebiancardi:

noble isn't the same as stupid.  For DD to give unconditional trust to
Snape based on the lamest of excuses is stupid, IMHO.  It isn't a
smart move on the LEADER of the Order of the Phoenix and the whole of
the wizarding community at stake.  Think about it.  DD wouldn't have
the balance of his organization and the wizarding community hang in
the balance of a former DE based on remorse.  That is incompendence of
the highest level.  And DD isn't incompendant.  And it took DD 20
years to find this "critical error"?  I don't think so.  I think the
reason why DD got angry with Snape (the conversation with Hagrid) is
because Snape didn't want to do Draco's deed - which was killing DD. 
Snape wanted out, which meant Snape would have died.


  
 
> Dana:
> Might I remind you that Snape did want to have Lupin soul sucked too? 

colebiancardi:

because he thought Lupin was in cahoots with Sirius, who at that time,
was still considered a mass-murderer

> Dana: He could not mess with the potion for the simple fact that it
would 
> not kill Lupin but make him a danger to the student body and that it 
> would implicate Snape as being the one who would have caused it. And 
> the same goes for poisoning Lupin. 

colebiancardi:

How could it be traced back to Snape?  Lupin could have taken
anything, pumpkin juice for instance, and keeled over dead.  How does
that road lead back to Snape?

> Dana: 
> Snape claims to have helped in the disposal of Black himself and I do 
> believe that he helped LV get Harry to the DoM and by notifying the 
> Order it would be a sure thing that Sirius would never stay behind. 

colebiancardi:

and I don't - I think Spinner's End is just that.  A web that was spun
to deceive Bella, Cissy and readers alike into thinking that Snape had
a hand in Sirius's death - and Snape does give "full credit" to Bella
for killing Sirius.  Sirius went; Harry told Snape, in code, to tell
Sirius to stay behind.  So whose fault was it, really, that Sirius went?  

 
colebiancardi