Werewolves and RL equivalents

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 170463


> Magpie:  
> > Of the three I have no problem saying that Snape is DDM, Hagrid 
is 
> > DDM and Lupin is his own man--and Sirius is Harry and James' 
man. 
> > He's not on the same level as Snape or Hagrid in Dumbledore's 
world 
> > either. The Marauders are not centered around Dumbledore. Hagrid
> > and Snape (if he's DDM Snape) are, despite their personal 
issues. 
> > Dumbledore can deal with personal limitations. Lupin's a lot 
more 
> > slippery due to the nature of his flaws. He exists more 
comfortably 
> > in the realm of people working for Dumbledore but not so 
centered 
> > on him as Snape and Hagrid.
> 
> Jen: Okay.  I can't really debate this as it never occurred to me 
> Dumbledore was categorizing loyalty beyond the people he trusts 
being 
> in the Order.  He shares information on a need-to-know basis with 
> everyone according to their mission from how I read the story.  
Snape 
> and Hagrid are more *dependent* on Dumbledore, that I see.  Lupin 
and 
> Sirius neither request nor appear to be in need of Dumbledore's 
> interventions to solve their own problems.  So he doesn't offer 
it. 

Magpie:
Ironically, I almost used the word "dependent" and didn't because I 
thought it almost might be too close to the truth, but I agree with 
it. It's not about sharing information, I don't think, but just that 
Snape and Hagrid are Dumbledore-centered and dependent. Of all the 
characters in canon they seem like the two that absolutely are most 
dependent on Dumbledore--they know it. Lupin and Sirius are 
independent agents with different people as priorities. This doesn't 
mean that Hagrid and Snape are Dumbledore's confidantes or that 
they're let in on things others aren't. I think they just have a far 
more intimate relationship, one where Dumbledore says stuff like "I 
trust Hagrid with my life" or "I trust Severus Snape completely." 
Placing trust in these two despite their many flaws seems kind of 
important to who Dumbledore is. He doesn't have the same 
relationship with Lupin. He's not one of Dumbledore's projects. 
Which I kind of love--because honestly I think Lupin *could have 
been* one of his projects but is so good at bucking it.

> Jen:  It seems like a moot point to consider what Dumbledore 
wanted 
> or not since he knew Lupin wouldn't be staying past a year no 
matter 
> what.  I guess he could go through the motions of being angry at 
> Snape and talking about finding a way for Lupin to stay, but to no 
> beneficial end from what I can see.  There's no other position for 
> Lupin to take but DADA and Lupin isn't in need of Dumbledore's 
> protection or help as others who stay in the castle are.  I 
believe 
> Lupin, having always made his own way, would find it insulting for 
> Dumbledore to offer some assistant job as he did to Hagrid (who 
was 
> 13 and had no family at the time).

Magpie:
True, but what I was arguing against was the idea that Dumbledore is 
that Snape outs Lupin and therefore Dumbledore must let Lupin go. 
That just goes against Dumbledore's character throughout the books--
Snape couldn't play him that way, imo. He wouldn't, imo, fire 
someone because Snape told students that he was a werewolf and 
therefore tomorrow there would be angry letters so he'll give up. 
The many reasons that Dumbledore has for not feeling a reason to 
protect Lupin or keep him on in some way or even make a point of 
saying that this is an injustice still mean that Dumbledore isn't 
being forced by Snape to let go a teacher he doesn't want to let go. 
Dumbledore letting Lupin go isn't out of character at all. 
Dumbledore letting him go against his wishes because he fears 
letters from parents protesting his hiring of a werewolf is what's 
out of character for Dumbledore imo.


> Magpie:
> > As to whether Dumbledore believed students were in danger, that 
> > doesn't have to be the biggest factor in Dumbledore not minding 
if 
> > Lupin left, but if he didn't believe they were in danger he had 
> > lost grip on reality. They were in danger, obviously, when they 
> > faced a transformed werewolf. He covered up for Lupin and knew 
that
> > he wasn't trying to hurt anyone, but I can't imagine Dumbledore 
not
> > thinking there's any danger involved in their being out there 
with
> > a werewolf. That would be a bit clueless on his part.
> 
> Jen:  The presumption is they are in danger and yet no one focuses 
on 
> it in the story except Lupin the next day!  While Lupin in 
werewolf 
> form is running loose on the grounds, Fudge and Dumbledore appear 
to 
> be more concerned about the Dementors and Snape is fixated on 
> Dumbledore trusting his story over the Trio's and Black escaping 
> again.  Then Dumbledore approves Harry and Hermione to go back out 
> and wander around the grounds again- heck yeah I think it looks 
like 
> all of them have lost their grip but none of the characters seem 
to 
> agree. 

Magpie:
Well, yeah. None of them bring it up as a priority. But I doubt 
they'd have argued with someone who did bring it up. It's just a 
slightly different thing--but not necessarily that important. Just 
as DD isn't being shown being angry at having to let Lupin go, he's 
also not angry at the kids being in danger. 

> Jen:  What I meant by that is had Snape waited or not come forward 
> when he did, Dumbledore and Lupin would have revealed the outcome 
> that Lupin was leaving anyway -that's what was taken out of their 
> hands, the choice to present the information as they saw fit and 
> include the details they felt were necessary.  So Snape acted 
> preemptively for some mystifying reason.  I mean, people are 
arguing 
> he didn't do it to get Lupin fired and Snape's words had no 
bearing 
> on Lupin's job prospects or career, so why did JKR make Snape part 
of 
> the story?  I don't see a purpose for him telling the students 
about 
> Lupin if it had no meaning.  

Magpie:
Oh, I think Snape certainly did take some things into his own hands--
he decided he was not going to let them do what you're describing. 
Whatever the direct results it had on Lupin's career or job, I think 
he told mostly because Snape wanted to tell all year long--perhaps 
once Lupin blew it and went running around he felt justified in ways 
he didn't before. He seems to want Lupin's status generally known. I 
don't know whether it's specifically so that he can't get work--I 
actually don't think that's the reason, just because it doesn't seem 
like Snape is specifically motivated by trying to keep Remus from 
working. What he does seem to want is that he's known to be a 
werewolf (which of course means he can't work--but I don't think 
that's Snape's goal specifically). 

Given what we know about Snape I'd probably connect it to the Prank, 
which turned on Lupin's condition being a secret. And perhaps also 
after a night where all sorts of things are covered up for his old 
enemies and things didn't wind up the way he wanted, he decided the 
one thing he could do was let out Lupin's secret. So like, in 
Snape's mind, if Lupin thought he got away with *everything* at 
least he didn't get away with this.

Seriously, I can just so see Snape being so angry the next morning 
and thinking, "Oh yeah, Remus you spineless little so-and-so. I'm 
not covering up for you any more. This stops now."

-m