Justice to Snape WAS: Re: Werewolves? There Wolves!

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 170561

> > Pippin:
> > Um, what about the part where he turned spy for the Order at
> > great personal risk? Are you saying that if he had been a 
careless
> > spy and gotten himself killed it would have been just, 
> > but since he was a good spy and stayed alive so he could keep 
> > supplying the Order with information, it was a slap on the wrist?
> > 
> > IOW, Dumbledore should  have sent him on a suicide mission?
> > I don't think so.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> No, I am saying that I am not convinced that Snape was spying for 
> Dumbledore at great personal risk AND accordingly so far I am not 
> convinced that this was sufficient punishment for what he did, 
since 
> I do not know what exactly he did for Dumbledore and whether it 
was 
> for Dumbledore or for Voldemort or for Snape.
> 
> Toonmili:
> > I think living with the guilt would be quite enough
> > punishment. He clearly feels bad about it, up to this day he 
can't
> > say Lily's name.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, not to me. Actually scratch that - if I will **see** that 
Snape 
> is living with guilt indeed, not hear through second party word 
that 
> he is, I may revise my opinion.
> 
> 
> Right now Dumbledore's *greatest remorse* is countered by Snape's 
> spinned him a  tale of the deepest remorse in my mind.
> 
> If I hear from Snape that he is sorry for what he helped doing to 
> Harry's parents and Harry and that he regrets it, I may think it 
> counts, but I want to hear it from Snape's mouth.
> 
> So, basically all depends on how it is written and only if Snape 
DD!
> M. Since right now I think of him as murderous, treacherous 
bastard 
> and child abuser, no punishment is too big for him in my view.


wynnleaf
Well, of course, it *all* depends on whether he's good or evil, 
right?  

If he's ESE!Snape, it's hardly a question, because Harry probably 
won't forgive him and he'll get punished right along with Bella and 
the rest.  I don't think JKR is going to have Harry have to forgive 
ESE!Snape, when he won't have to forgive Bella, Voldemort and the 
rest.

If Snape is just a nasty, evil guy, but was always serving 
Dumbledore (maybe for his own ends), then I can understand wanting 
to see him get some extra punishment.  After all, if he's a nasty 
evil meany, then even if he's serving the Order, he must be having a 
great time over with Voldemort's crowd, where he can kill and 
torture people to his heart's content, right?  And he doesn't *care* 
about being a pariah to the good side, because he hates them all 
anyway.  And all that part about him risking his life spying -- 
well, it doesn't matter much because his life wasn't worth living 
anyway, so what does it matter?  What he really needs is some good 
old fashion punishment, so all the good guys can feel better about 
the classroom sarcasm and insults.  

Right.  Hm...

I have to admit, even with the above scenario, I'm not sure what 
Harry's forgiveness is worth, to himself or Snape, if Harry still 
needs to have retribution, or some sort of punishment for Snape 
*after* he's forgiven Snape.

Okay.  Now, let's suppose that Dumbledore was right all along and 
JKR reveals Snape to be *actually* very remorseful for the Potter's 
deaths.  Let's say he really did risk his life spying all those 
years.  Let's say he realized the value of Dumbledore's trust and 
actually felt exactly like Harry when he AK'd Dumbledore -- hating 
himself and repulsed by his own actions.  Let's say he's always been 
a loner, but at least had Dumbledore for the past many years as 
someone who was on the good side and actually trusted him.  Now he's 
off with the Death Eaters who are his enemies and all the good guys 
hate him.  But nevertheless, he's still trying to complete 
Dumbledore's order.  

Well, obviously if these things are true, JKR is going to have to 
*show* Harry and the readers that they're true.  Harry didn't 
believe Dumbledore, so I don't see how he'd believe some posthumous 
statement from a portrait or a pensieve.  JKR will have to *show* 
Harry and therefore us, Snape's real motives.  So if the above is 
true, Harry will be shown that truth, not just get told once again.

Do we still need punishment for Snape now?  I don't think so.  If 
this is the Snape JKR will reveal (and I think the signs are that it 
will be), Snape is already a figure of great remorse and lots of 
sacrifice.   

wynnleaf