[HPforGrownups] Re: Unbreakable Vows

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 165611

> Snow:
>
> I'm not actually looking for loopholes; they just seem to appear to
> me like huge question marks.
>
> I can not get my head around the fact that Draco seems to be so very
> confident that he can kill Dumbledore at the beginning, when (as you
> say yourself further down) Voldemort has never succeeded in doing so.
>
> What would make Draco feel so confident in the deed assigned to him
> if in fact it was to kill Dumbledore at his own hand?

Magpie:
Where does he seem so very confident? He's pleased with himself early on, 
but having never killed anyone before he's just clueless. I think to him 
Dumbledore's an old man and he's got this task and he hasn't really faced 
the reality yet.

Snow:
> As others have noticed, as well as me, Draco seemed to be quite pre-
> occupied with the cabinets if his main objective was to kill
> Dumbledore "himself" from the get go. Granted, attempts were made on
> Dumbledore's life but they were quite feeble attempts, like his heart
> really wasn't in it, if Dumbledore was `his' main objective.

Magpie:
The Cabinets *are* Draco's method of killing Dumbledore himself. He gets 
backup to get himself to Dumbledore, and then he has to do it. The Cabinets 
are a way of working on killing DD, but also something putting it off, 
because the Cabinets aren't the killing part.

Snow:
> Then we have Draco's meltdown where he was allowing himself to be
> consoled by a muggleborn ghost, what changed, where's mister-cocky-
> attitude now?

Magpie:
He's tasted some of the reality of death with Katie and Ron and is beginning 
to realize how hard his task is. The Cabinet isn't getting fixed and 
Voldemort has started threatening him. So he's beginning to understand how 
hard this is, how he quite possibly is not going to be able to do it, and 
Voldemort threatening him and his family with death.

Snow:
> After this we have Draco's whoops in the Room of Requirement as if he
> just felt he had won the big prize and yet he is no closer to killing
> Dumbledore (himself) than he was before.

Magpie:
Yes, he sort of is closer to killing Dumbledore. The Cabinets bring the DEs 
in, and that's supposed to pave his way. (Plus, he's done something right. 
He is, imo, genuinely pleased to have actually completed something he's been 
trying to do for so long.)

Snow:
> Was Draco just under some delusional concept all along that he would
> never have to kill Dumbledore at all, that the Deatheaters would be
> there to help fulfill his assignment? That wouldn't be cocky that
> would be stupid.

Magpie:
The Deatheaters *are* there to help fulfill his assignment. They are his 
backup who will make it so that all he has to do is point his wand and do 
the curse. The delusional concept is that killing is as easy as pointing a 
wand and saying the words. It is somewhat stupid, but despite Malfoy not 
being one of the world's great thinkers, it's not all that dumb for a naive 
adolescent. He doesn't have all that many choices from his pov, so he pretty 
much has to go forward as far as he can.

Snow:>
> As far as the Vow itself, concerning loopholes, JKR has already
> established that fact when the stipulations to the Vow were so vague
> in content compounded by out of character responses from a youngster
> who has presumably been assigned the task of killing the greatest
> wizard of his time. This is the biggest question mark of all. It just
> doesn't fit well for me.

Magpie:
I tend to think it's one of those things like the Life Debt. It doesn't hold 
up to scrutiny but it makes sense on the face of it. It's just "promise to 
do this or else you die." As for Draco, there I have no problem. He seems to 
be acting perfectly in character for me throughout the story.

> Neri:
>
> Because Snape has just made it very clear to her that he will not take
> the task *instead* of Draco. The Dark Lord gave the task to Draco and
> Snape will not go against the Dark Lord's orders. So the whole third
> clause is only made possible by Snape's detailed estimation that the
> Dark Lord does not believe Draco will manage the task and actually
> means for Snape to do it in the end, but he's determined that Draco
> must try first. Therefore Narcissa stresses that Snape is required to
> step in only "should it prove necessary... if it seems Draco would
> fail". Draco must have the first shot, or it's going directly against
> the Dark Lord's orders and Snape would refuse it. BTW, this wording
> also implies that Snape is quite free to refuse the third clause even
> after he had already accepted the previous two. Otherwise Narcissa
> would have taken advantage of that to make him promise doing the deed
> without Draco attempting it first.
>
> Snow:
>
> That makes perfect sense when you look at the picture only from the
> cut scene of the Vow.
>
> Narcissa's phraseology still leaves a doubt in my mind because I
> don't give her that much credit to be brilliant enough to entrap
> Snape the way you propose.

Magpie:
I'm not following that--where is she trapping him? It seems like she's just 
asking him what she's been hinting at all along, and he knows it.

> Neri:
>
> So what was the task to be in the beginning? Narcissa says that Draco
> doesn't stand a chance because even the Dark Lord has never succeeded.
> But if the task was infiltrating Hogwarts, Voldemort has already done
> that (in SS/PS). If the mission is smuggling DEs into Hogwarts,
> Voldemort has done that too (Crouch Jr. in GoF, and of course Snape
> himself). And Narcissa adds that not only the Dark Lord, but *nobody*
> has ever succeeded before. This limits options considerably.
>
>
> Snow:
>
> Very good reply! Of course now I have to nitpick a few points;
> Voldemort has never infiltrated Hogwarts as himself (a parasite
> wouldn't really count would it); Crouch Jr. would not be counted as a
> group of DE's.

Magpie:
Why wouldn't a parasite count? He's acting as himself, being himself. At one 
point he was able to walk in and request a job. It's only this year Hogwarts 
even has this much security. I don't think a group of DEs would be a big 
deal compared to one DE--one that's a teacher and has the run of the place 
all year! Obviously security has been breached. I think it's obvious what 
they're referring to is the thing that's been stressed as something 
Voldemort can't do, which is kill Dumbledore. Other suggestions, to me, are 
lame by comparison, storywise. Killing Dumbledore's got just the right 
drama.

Snow:
> This was not exactly what I had in mind when I made the statement
> that I did. I agree that Dumbledore was always the target, I just
> don't think Draco or his mother were aware that he was the only one
> destined to do the deed of the actual killing.

Magpie:
They don't? But isn't that the subject of all their early conversations? 
That's why Narcissa comes to Snape, because it's Draco who's got to do it. 
Snape says yes, he has to do it. Draco talks about how there's something 
he's got to do.

Snow:
> If the assignment were to just kill Dumbledore by any means with all
> necessary help at your disposal (like Draco's remark about Fenrir to
> Borgins or was it Burk?), then I could see Draco acting cocky as he
> did at the beginning, and I could see Narcissa being as worried as
> she was.
>
> This doesn't make that much appearing difference to the storyline but
> it does explain character response. I simply don't agree that Draco
> nor anyone else (except Voldemort), was aware at the time of the Vow,
> that Draco had to be the lone killer.

Magpie:
One of the major themes of Draco's story is the difference between reality 
and fantasy killing. Draco can be cocky because it's not real. He doesn't 
get it yet.

Though I'd also add Draco's not *that* cocky. He's very pleased with being 
chosen and having this important task, but he's never particularly arrogant 
about doing it. He seems a lot more quietly focused on the actual doing of 
it. He thinks he can do it, which is rather arrogant I suppose, but it's not 
amazingly arrogant. It's a challenge and he's determined to do it. I don't 
think he ever really suggests he thinks it's going to be that easy, even 
when he's getting pleasure out of dropping hints about it.

Snow:
> It doesn't appear to make much of a difference on the surface until
> you take into consideration Snape's hesitation in making the Vow and
> his spat with Dumbledore much later.
>
> Snape felt that he was protecting a child from making a way to
> Dumbledore's demise (which is bad enough) only to find out that he
> was protecting the child that would ultimatly be his demise and if
> Draco couldn't do it then Snape was held accountable.

Magpie:
So you mean Snape didn't know he was vowing to kill Dumbledore because he 
thought Draco was just trying to get the DEs into Hogwarts? That doesn't 
support the drama I'm seeing throughout the story, or any of the characters 
reactions. I also don't think it fits the way JKR writes. She writes bold, 
clear, tragic things. It all fits together beautifully if you take the 
straightforward stuff that's there and fit it together simply. Imo, when we 
start complicating things with offscreen mistakes and mind-changes, and 
confusion...it turns to mush for me.

There's absolutely nothing preventing it from being straightforward: Draco's 
given the task of killing Dumbledore. Narcissa goes to Snape and asks him to 
intercede so Draco doesn't have to kill Dumbledore. Snape vows to protect 
Draco and kill Dumbledore if it seems Draco won't be able to do it, since 
they all know he won't. (God knows why he vows this, but he does.) 
Meanwhile, Draco is eager to prove himself by killing Dumbledore. He has a 
special plan to do so, due to his knowing about Montague. He will fix the 
Cabinet so that he can get a whole team of DEs into the castle to do the 
fighting and give him his clear shot at Dumbledore, which he will then take. 
When the Cabinets aren't easily fixed he tries other ways of killing. The 
pressure gets worse, everything gets more real, and we get the end we get.

-m