ChapDisc: HBP30, The White Tomb - What if...???

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165911

bboyminn earlier:
> > <snip>
> > > In general, I somewhat dispute people's claims of  what is a
normal Killing Curse. To my knowledge, we have never seen a Killing
Curse actually occur. ...
> > 
Carol earlier:
> > Actually, yes, we have--Harry sees Fake!Moody kill the spider:
> > 
> > "There was a flash of blinding green light and a rushing sound, as
though a vast, invisible something was soaring through the
air--instantaneously, the  spider rolled over onto its back, unmarked,
but unmistakably dead (GoF Am. ed. 316). <snip>
 
> > How many descriptions do we need to see that AK victims do not go
sailing into the air, that they die instantly (the freezing charm
should have worn off instantly), that there's a "blinding flash" ...,
 nothing like the "jet" of green light that comes from Snape's wand? 

> bboyminn:
> 
> Here is the key aspect of my point, that you seem to be missing.
Curses act very differently depending on the emotion behind them. <snip>

Carol:
Sorry. I didn't mean to ignore that aspect. I conceded that JKR's
descriptions aren't always consistent and that it may simply be that
she's unaware of the inconsistencies. And I also conceded that Snape's
powerful Expelliarmus (which so delightfully "knocks Lockhart on his
ass," as you put it, is roughly equivalent to the three combined
Expelliarmuses that knock Snape into the wall in PoA (it's the wall
that knocks him out, not the spell). Expelliarmus is, indeed, usually
just a disarming spell. But I don't think that Snape's AK is extra
strong, or that an extra strong Ak would knock someone over the wall.
Voldemort's AKs don't do that, and he's the most powerful Dark wizard
ever. And Wormtail "screams" the words AVADA KEDAVRA! "into the
night--and Cedric just plops down dead like Frank Bryce.

So, yes, spells act differently depending on the power of the wizard
casting them, how many people are casting them, and the emotional
state of the wizard casting them, but I still don't think Avada
Kedavra alone, no matter how powerful the wizard or how angry he was
(and snape was furious at somebody) could account for DD's body going
over the wall. I think it had to be a deliberate action on Snape's
part, without which he would never have succeeded in keeping Fenrir
Greyback from having Dumbledore for "afters" or getting the DEs off
the tower before Harry came rushing out to fight them. If anyone but
Snape had killed DD, the consequences would have been unthinkable.

But *my* point was that, yes, we do know what a "normal" AK looks (and
sounds) like. I cited all the examples from GoF and showed their
similarities. And Snape's AK doesn't fit the pattern. That's all I'm
saying.

bboyminn:
> Also, key to my theory, is that /missed/ spells frequently have
substantial physical impact.

Carol:
But Snape's spell, whatever it was, didn't "miss." It hit DD squarely
in the chest--and unlike any AK we've ever seen, *blasts* him into the
air and then leaves him suspended for a second like a ragdoll over the
battlements. Find me an AK anywhere in the books that does that.

However, rather surprisingly, Impedimenta (which also, note
concession, acts rather differently at different times) can and does
have almost exactly the same effect as Snape's unusual AK:

"'*Impedimenta*!' yelled Harry.

"His jinx hit Amycus in the chest. He gave a piglike squeal of pain,
was lifted off his feet and slammed into the opposite wall, and fell
out of sight behind Ron" (599). 

"Lifted off his feet." Rather like Dumbledore, who is "blasted into
the air" and sent over the ramparts, only, unlie Amycus, Dumbledore
seems to have had a soft landing. Isn't it odd that after falling from
the Astronomy tower, the *entrance* to which is seven floors up and
which must be at least two stories above that to be the tallest tower
in Hogwarts, Dumbledore is still recognizable, looking like he's
asleep with his glasses and limbs askew but is not a pile of bloody
pulp? True, JKR may simply be protecting her readers' sensibilities
and setting up a poignant scene with Harry, but Harry would have been
dead had it not been for Dumbledore's slowing spell ("Arresto
Momentum" in the film--I don't think it's named in the book) and that
was only fifty feet. Seven stories would be 84 feet, plus the
additional height of the tower itself, plus the fact that the seventh
story in British English is equivalent to the eighth floor in American
English, which would mean that DD fell about 120 feet (your
calculations may vary). I really think that Snape must have slowed the
fall somehow.
> 
bbpyminn:
> I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying that this absolute
determination to see the Killing Curse in only one light is ignoring a
lot of available information.

Carol:
Funny. That's the same way I feel about your position. I'm not
ignoring your points; I'm just not convinced by them. Nor am I
"absolute[ly] determin[ed] to see the Killing Curse in only one
light." I'm only pointing out that Snape's AK is different in many
respects from any other AK that we've seen. So the first thing I'm
doing is presenting the evidence to that effect--whether Harry has
seen the AKs or not, the reader has, and they don't resemble Snape's.
>From there, I'm doing the same thing you're doing, which is trying to
figure out a plausible reason why that's the case.
> 
bboyminn:
> Also, I am trying to find a reasonable and workable explanation for
what has happened.

Carol:

So am I. We agree that something is up with this weird AK. We just
don't agree on the differences or the reasons behind them. (We're both
speculating, and we're both supporting our speculations with canon
evidence. But we can't use the same evidence because we're going in
different directions.)

bboyminn:
> something isn't quite right about the whole Green Light Spell on the
top of the tower. 

Carol:
Exactly.

bboyminn:
It is possible that Snape used some alternate spell, but why? JKR has
said about as unequivocally as is possible that Dumbledore is dead and
he is not coming back. So, what purpose does an alternate spell provide? 

Carol:
Right. Dumbledore is dead. That, unfortunately, is indisputable. As
far as an alternate spell disguised as an is concerned, its sole
purpose would be to let Dumbledore die from the poison (or the
"unstoppered" ring curse, according to some theories). That way Snape
would not be guilty of murder, only of letting Dumbledore die. It
accomplishes exactly the same thing that your
Dumbledore-was-already-dead theory accomplishes. It would also explain
the anomalies in the supposed AK, including the closed eyes and
sending DD over the ramparts.

The other possibility is that Snape cast a nonverbal spell *in
addition to* a real AK. This version of the theory explains one
anomaly, sending DD over the ramparts, which IMO was an essential step
toward getting the boys safely off the tower and the DEs out of
Hogwarts. It doesn't get Snape off the hook for murder, but it does
explain the apparent soft landing and is compatible with a Snape
tragically trapped by the vow into killing Dumbledore against his
will. (This version explains Snape's anguish and makes Harry's
forgiveness of Snape, which I'm sure is coming, a more generous and
merciful and compassionate act on his part than it will be if Snape
merely "killed" a Dumbledore who was already dead. IMO, he acted very
much against his will but did exactly what Dumbledore wanted him to
do. That took much more courage, IMO, than pretending to kill
Dumbledore. But that took courage, too, because of the danger it
placed Snape in and the hatred he would face. But to murder your
mentor because it's the only way to save everyone else? It's like the
old ethical dilemma--the lifeboat only has room for four people. Which
of the five prospective passengers should be left to drown? In this
case, the old man whose job is done.)

Anyway, I hope you understand that, like you, I'm trying to make sense
of Snape's actions in relation to the strange behavior of the AK
spell, which, as I've already demonstrated, is not "normal" insofar as
"normal" can be determined based on Frank Bryce, the spider, Cedric,
and the Riddles.

bboyminn:
<snip>
> 
> As to 'Flash' vs 'Jet', you have a point, but I'm not sure to what
extent I buy it. The only 'jet' of light the produce very very little
peripheral light is a lazer. Most other intense 'jets' or more
accurately 'beams' of light are going to have some peripheral 
radiation. A brilliantly intense beam of light is also going to
produce a substantial peripheral 'flash' of  light. 

Carol:
Hm. I'll go with my dictionary definitions, thanks. A jet of light, as
you say, is like a laser. A flash is like the flash of an
old-fashioned camera. It hurts our eyes, it does. I can't ignore that
word "blinding" or the reference I cited in SS/PS to "all that green
light."
> 
> Again, I can't say your wrong. In fact, I will flat out say that all
I am doing is speculating. Until JKR tells us for sure, that is all we
can do. But I also think there are bits of evidence that you are
discounting in your analysis.

Carol:
Possibly. But I was, after all, trying to counter a specific point
that there's no normal AK. And I did make the concessions noted
earlier in this post, and I feel the same way about your discounting
the evidence that I think is important. Yes, we're both speculating,
and we're both trying to make concessions. I just don't think we're
going to convince each other. Much as I would love to believe that
Snape was innocent of murder, I won't be convinced that Dumbledore was
already dead unless I see some evidence other than the way spells act
when they encounter inanimate objects.

Carol, noting again that the alternate spell/additional spell
hypotheses serve the same purpose as the idea that Dumbledore was
already dead, to explain Snape's actions and motives in a way
consistent with the abnormal action of the so-called Killing Curse