Why DD did not ask Snape to kill him. (extremely long)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 165941

Dana wrote:
> <snip>

> Interesting because what use will it be to Snape to misdirect Bella
about LV? He might gloat a little that he is in the know more than she
is but misdirecting another DE can be a very dangerous business,
especially one that is competing for the Dark Lord's favor. Better not
mess with information that can be checked with LV himself.
> 
> Bella is not stupid, she even made sure Draco did not let Snape help
him and wipe his own slate clean. So far it doesn't seem that Snape's
misdirection is working very well now is it. Apparently Bella
perceived Snape's words exactly as many readers do as being
misdirection, so it missed the point entirely and I do not believe
Snape is that dumb, but who knows?

<snip quotes, which show Snape in the DE role he must assume around
the Malfoys, Bella, and LV, regardless of where his loyalties truly lie>

Carol responds:

Bella isn't stupid, I agree. I don't think she's a genius, by any
means, but such intelligence as she has leads her to suspect that
Snape isn't as loyal to LV as she is. Even at the end of the chapter,
she's still expecting him to "slither out of action" as usual. 

And certainly Snape has some reason to spend half the chapter
convincing her of his loyalty, giving her, apparently, exactly the
same answers that he's already given LV:

"Do you really think that the Dark Lord has not already asked me each
and every one of these questions? And do you really think that, had I
not been able to give satisfactory answers, I would be here talking to
you?" (HBP Am. ed. 26). "Satisfactory answers," certainly, but we know
that they're not entirely true. Snape is concealing anything that can
be used against him, and we know that he can use Occlumency to lie
without detection (OoP "Occlumency" chapter). 

Moreover, Snape specifies his reason for taking the time to answer
Bella's questions before turning to Narcissa: The other DEs are
talking about him behind his back, and he wants her to tell them
exactly what he's told her (26)--obviously what he's already told LV
or the conflict between the stories would get him in big trouble with
the Dark Lord. That he does not entirely allay her doubts is beside
the point. She has the story he's told the Dark Lord, and she has no
way to disprove it. She can't very go to the Dark Lord and tell him
that Snape has successfully lied to him. Her choice is to believe that
Voldemort, "the greatest Legilimens in the world," could not possibly
be fooled by Severus Snape--or to confront the Dark Lord with the idea
that Snape has somehow "hoodwinked" him (26). If Bella values her
life, she'd better keep those doubts to herself.

Moreover, Snape makes sure that Bellatrix is no longer in the
confidence of the Dark Lord before he begins his negotiations with
Narcissa, which he knows full well that Bellatrix won't approve of
because they involve trying to rescue Draco from a dangerous mission
that the Dark Lord has sent him on, one that can end only with the
death of Dumbledore or, more likely, Draco's failure and subsequent
murder.

"'He shares everything with me!' said Bellatrix. . . .

"'Does he?' said Snape, his voice inflected to suggest disbelief.
"'Does he *still*, after the fiasco at the Ministry?' 

"That was not my fault! said Bellatrix, flushing. 'The Dark Lord has
in the past entrusted me with his most precious--" (29).

That this trust was *in the past* makes it clear that Snape can safely
proceed. Bella is no longer in the Dark Lord's confidence. She can't
confirm his story and more than she can question the story he's
already told the Dark Lord. (Note that she doesn't suspect that Snape
sent the Order to the Ministry, complaining only that he wasn't there.
She has no way of confirming whether his orders were to remain behind,
as he claims. It makes sense that they were; after all, double agent
Snape has to maintain his cover.)

As additional insurance that Bella won't go to Voldemort, Snape makes
sure that she's involved with the Unbreakable Vow by making her the
Bonder. She *can't* go to LV to tell him about the UV to protect Draco
because she's the one who administered it. Very clever, Snape! (Aside
on Wormtail: He could have been made the Bonder in an emergency, but I
don't think Narcissa would have thought of that or that Snape would
have suggested it considering that he's carefully sent Wormtail out of
the room and apparently sealed the door to keep him from
eavesdropping. I still think that Narcissa didn't plan the UV from the
beginning--she didn't expect Bella to follow her and she wouldn't have
known that Wormtail was there.) 

As for Bella perceiving Snape's word as misdirection, do you mean that
she knows or suspects that he lied to the Dark Lord about his
loyalties? If that's your meaning, I agree with you, but again, she
can't say anything, because to do so would be to tell Voldemort that
Snape has "hoodwinked the greatest Legilimens the world has ever
known"--and Bella isn't fool enough to tell LV that Snape is smarter
than he is. Snape's taking the vow doesn't assure her of his
allegiance to Voldemort, since all of them are going behind the Dark
Lord's back, but it does seem to prove to her that he's not
Dumbledore's man. (That's hardly a sufficient reason for Snape to take
the vow, especially the last provision, nor do I think it's his main
reason, though it's probably a consideration. But at the moment, I'm
talking about Bellatrix, not Snape.)

I think her astonishment is significant because it relates to and
sheds light on her subsequent actions. This time, in her view, Snape
*isn't* "slithering out of action.* He's agreeing to "protect" and
"watch over" Draco, at the risk of his own life. He's even willing,
apparently, to "do the deed" if it appears that Draco will fail. But
Bellatrix, loyal servant of Voldemort, is determined that the "glory"
of killing Dumbledore will go to Draco, not to Snape, and she does her
best later to undermine Draco's relationship with Snape, not only
teaching Draco rudimentary Occlumency (easily detectable but
sufficient to prevent him from seeing Draco's plans in his mind). It's
likely that she's the one who plants the suspicion in Draco's mind
that Snape is trying to steal his glory, an idea that Snape himself
reacts to with scorn, saying coldly, "You are speaking like a child"
(524). It's clear, so clear that even Harry notices it, that something
or someone has come between Snape and his favorite student, who used
to speak to him respectfully. The something is obviously Draco's "job"
for the Dark Lord; he no longer trusts Snape and sneers at his
protection (as well as at Snape's new subject, Defense against the
Dark Arts. He assumes that Snape is a loyal Death Eater, competing
with the other DEs for Voldemort's favor.  

Since Narcissa trusts Snape and has come to him for help, she can't be
the person who has planted these doubts in Draco's mind. It has to be
either Voldemort himself or Aunt Bellatrix, the same person who has
(Snape deduces or assumes) taught Draco Occlumency to keep Snape from,
as Draco puts it, "butting in" (324). Clearly, Bellatrix doesn't want
Snape to know what's going on. *She* believes Narcissa's line about
being rewarded above all others. She wants her old position of trust
restored, or if she can't resume her old position, she wants it to go
to her own nephew, not to Snape. Unlike the others, she doesn't care
whether Draco lives or dies: "If I had sons, I would be glad to give
them up to the service of the Dark Lord!" 35). Bellatrix wants the
Dark Lord's orders carried out. She wants Dumbledore dead. But the
last thing she wants is for Severus Snape, whom she still doesn't
fully trust, to "steal" Draco's "glory." And Draco, even after Snape
saves him from Sectumsempra, believes it, too. I wonder, however, how
he'll feel when he discovers that the "glory" he anticipated is really
 infamy and the life of a wanted criminal.

Dana wrote:
> 
> I am not an ESE!Snaper because they believe he was evil from the
start and I do not. I believe Snape is not an LV man either and I do
not even believe he is out for his own self anymore or at least not as
part of grabbing the bone when the other two top dogs are fighting for
it. 

Carol responds:
Good. So far, we agree perfectly. I'm not an ESE!Snaper, either, nor
do I believe for a moment that a man who is out for himself would take
an Unbreakable Vow under any circumstances.

Dana:
I believe Snape is driven by his feelings of hate that are raging
inside him and he cannot control. I believe he is looking for
acceptance so desperately that he lets himself be driven by it and yes
at this moment I believe he's disappointed in DD for not choosing him
over the, in his mind, not special at all, Harry, which  has driven
him to the other side where at this moment LV is giving him the
acceptance he is graving so badly. <snip>

Carol:
I think you're partially right. IOW, I think that young Snape joined
the DEs in the first place looking for (or craving) acceptance and
respect, not to mention a creative outlet for his considerable
abilities. And he also deeply values, perhaps craves, Dumbledore's
respect. But I'm not sure that he's as driven by hatred as you seem to
think he is. He's certainly shown courage by showing his Dark Mark to
Fudge, returning to LV with prepared explanations for his dealings
with Quirrell and absence from the graveyard ("If you are ready, if
you are prepared"), and he has undoubtedly saved Harry's life at least
once despite hating him. (As for PoA, he could easily have left HRH to
 the werewolf and Black to the Dementors that were still on the
Hogwarts grounds and could have returned as soon as the person who
conjured the Patronus disappeared. I count that as saving Harry's life
again, just as he saved him from a Crucio in HBP.)

Nor am I sure about Snape's view of Harry, other than his being an
arrogant little rule-breaker. Does he really think that Harry is
"mediocre in the last degree" (in which case, he may fear that Harry
will fail in his role as the Chosen One) or is that what he wants the
DEs and Voldemort to think? Either is consistent with DDM!Snape.
 
Dana:
> I do not believe Snape would rather have died and his wanting to be
a hero has nothing to do with going out with a blaze.

Carol:
I'm not sure where you get this idea that some of os see Snape as
wanting to go out in a blaze of glory. (I certainly haven't argued
that, and I don't know of anyone who has.) If that's what he wanted,
surely, he would have fought a few Death Eaters until they or the UV
killed him. And certainly whatever "glory" he might receive from LV
(the reward that Narcissa was apparently trying to tempt him with and
that Draco accuses him of wanting to steal) is small compensation for
the loss of his mentor and protector, the loss of his job, the loss of
his freedom, the threat of death and imprisonment, and the hatred of
the entire WW aside from the possibly envious DEs). No one is saying
that Snape wanted to go out in a blaze of glory. That might fit Sirius
Black but not Snape, whose choices are to take on the ignominy of
murdering Dumbledore himself (or seeming to do so, according to some
hypotheses) or to die from the UV. *We don't know* whether he would
rather have died than be in his present situation, but it's certainly
possible. Not being Wormtail, he may not value his own life above
anything else. It's possible (IMO likely) that he valued Dumbledore's
cause, the destruction of Voldemort, above else. If so, to die
fighting the DEs would *seem* to be the right choice but instead it
would be the *easy* choice. What good is dying a hero if the boy you
vowed to save and protect is killed, along with the only person who
can bring avbout his goal, the destruction of Voldemort?  DDM!Snape
*has* to save Harry and Draco, and the only way to do that, under the
peculiar circumstances of the tower, which neither he nor DD could
have anticipated, is to kill DD himself. (See my previous posts.)

Dana:
> He keeps everybody reminded of the fact he could have died at
Lupin's hand and even wants to have Sirius soul sucked for having a
hand in it. 

Carol:
No. Harry and Lupin *assume* that the "schoolboy grudge" is the reason
for Snape's rage and his desire to have Black soul-sucked, and it's
certainly the reason that he hated and mistrusted them in the first
place. But Snape himself states that James Potter was too arrogant to
believe that Black was not trustworthy and that he's saving HRH from a
murderer and his werewolf accomplice. He still thinks that Black
murdered thirteen people, including Peter Pettigrew, and that Lupin
has been helping him into the castle to murder Harry. Events prove him
wrong, but those beliefs (easily supported by canon from the Shrieking
Shack scene and the earlier scene after Black slashes the Fat Lady's
portrait) provide the real reason for his actions. He has also, of
course, been trying to prevent Harry from sneaking into Hogsmeade,
where Black could easily kill him, as Lupin points out when he
confiscates the map). 

And Snape doesn't "keep everybody reminded" of the fact that Lupin
could have killed him. He reminds Dumbledore *once* that Sirius Black
(not Lupin) tried to kill him when they were sixteen. IMO, Snape is
ashamed of having had his life saved by his worst enemy, James Potter,
and only mentions the incident to remind Dumbledore of Black's
seemingly murderous tendencies.

Dana:
> He also keeps reminding everybody that he is risking his butt at
great *personal* risk, that is not a man who has a death wish but one
that wants to be admired for his skills to stay alive while others
parish. He is too self-centered to die on behalf of someone else. He
doesn't even want to risk his cover for Harry because it would mean LV
would turn on him; and all this while he would certainly have been the
hero for DD if he had done so. <snip>

Carol:
Sirius Black says in the Shrieking Shack that he wishes Snape had died
in the so-called Prank. He tries to undermine Snape when Snape tells
Harry that DD wants Snape to teach him Occlumency, calling him
Snivellus and implying that he's not to be trusted, that he's Malfoy's
"lapdog." Snape retorts in kind, insinuating that Black is a coward
and pointing out that Black's rash excursion accompanying Harry to
Platform 9 3/4 caused Malfoy to spot him. Now that Snape knows that
Black wasn't the murderer who betrayed the Potters, as he had so
happily believed all these years, he's back to his schoolboy grudge.
But so is Black. They reinforce each other.

I'm not arguing, BTW, that Snape has a death wish, so we agree there.
The choice between killing DD or dying has nothing to do with wanting
or not wanting to die. It has to do with right vs. easy in a very
particular set of circumstances. But I think we can safely say that,
unlike Wormtail and Voldemort, Snape isn't *afraid* to die. In that,
oddly enough, he resembles Sirius Black. Both of them resent charges
of cowardice, but neither is a coward. (The cowards we've seen are
Wormtail and Karkaroff, and, on a moral level, Lupin when he chooses
not to act in both the Pensieve scene and throughout PoA. He does. of
course, accept the mission to spy on the werewolves, but that involves
physical danger, not the loss of friendship or esteem, which is
Lupin's real fear, his full-moon Boggart to the contrary.)

Dana:

> Narcissa already asked Snape to do it for Draco so either Snape
> is really ignorant or a complete idiot to not expect Narcissa
including this in the vow.
> 
> Quote: 'You could do it instead of Draco, Severus. *He* would
> reward you beyond all of *us* -` page 39 UK ed [Emphasis mine]

Carol:
And yet that's not what she asked him to do. She asks if he'll take
the UV to protect Draco. And that's what the first two versions
require of him. The hand twitch indicates that he didn't anticipate,
and dreads, what's coming in the third provision. Snape is neither an
idiot nor ignorant. He knows that Narcissa wants him to protect Draco
from harm and death, and that's what he's promising to do when he
agrees to take the vow. That she may have something else up her sleeve
is a risk he takes, wittingly or unwittingly. We don't yet know his
motives. 

But to think that Snape is at all tempted by the thought that LV will
reward him "beyond all of us" is, IMO, to make Snape appear as naive
as Draco. Snape knows all too well how LV rewards his followers. He
sees the wreck that Wormtail has become, despite his precious silver
hand. He knows that one of LV's motives in sending Draco to kill
Dumbledore is vengeance against Lucius Malfoy if Draco fails. He knows
 what happened to Barty Crouch Jr. He knows that Bellatrix, the most
faithful remaining follower, is no longer in a position of trust.
Unlike Draco, unlike his younger self, Snape has no illusions of
reward. And Narcissa's mentioning this idea earlier, to which Snape
has merely replied thoughtfully that he *thinks* he expects him to do
it in the end is no indication that he *wants* to do it, nor does her
mentioning that idea in hopes that being rewarded by LV to do the deed
will serve as an inducement automatically mean that she'll sneak in
the same idea, without the suggestion of a reward, into the vow. (I
personally think she had no such intention and that the DADA curse
caused it to pop into her head, but I'm sure you disagree with that view.)

Carol, who can't possibly answer all the ideas in Dana's very long
post and is for the moment limiting herself to these