Why DD did not ask Snape to kill him. (extremely long)

[Ceridwen]

No: HPFGUIDX 166048

Dana:
*(snip)*
>Are you suggesting that JKR only reads the essays written by 
children and young teens? Also is this not a little bit condescending 
towards the very young that they cannot come up with a decent theory?

Ceridwen:
I said that children and teens may not have read as extensively as 
adults, so the various scenarios which are possible in certain types 
of books or stories are harder for them to guess.  I don't think that 
is condescending.  Children and teens haven't been alive long enough 
to have read as extensively as adults.  It isn't a fault, they 
shouldn't feel guilty.

I didn't say they can't come up with decent theories.  I do think 
children in particular, less so teens, are less likely than adults to 
start poking around in the minutae and start noticing quirks and 
flaws.  In my opinion, children, and less so teens, are more likely 
to trust things in the way they are presented to them.  They lose 
this trust as they get older and learn how to question.  I do think 
that the young are less likely to question JKR's pronouncements on 
her stories.

Take the now-infamous explanation for Snape not being given the DADA 
post.  It was an "ah-hah!" moment for some teens and young twenties I 
knew at the time on the internet.  I even accepted it myself, since I 
couldn't think of a different possibility, and couldn't find any 
canon to dispute this - and I haven't been a teen or in my twenties 
in a long time.  *g*

It did niggle at me, and now I completely believe JKR was speaking to 
the books as they stood at the time, and not giving away future 
plot.  But, for lack of a better explanation, I and people that I 
knew on-line had to accept it until it was disproven.

I still maintain that, due to lack of time to read as extensively as 
an adult old enough to be their parent, children and teens are less 
likely to guess the various possible scenarios simply because they 
haven't had enough time for exposure to those scenarios.  I do think 
that children and teens are more capable of understanding nuances, 
and of performing tasks, than people give them credit for.

I also think that, because people don't think children and teens can 
handle certain ideas, they never write those ideas for them.  This 
again takes away that reading experience when it comes to guessing 
scenarios.  Rowling doesn't write to a mythical least common 
denominator child, she writes a good story.  Having Harry attacked by 
Dementors isn't something she deemed as being too horrible for 
children to think about; having his relations treat him badly wasn't 
something she decided not to do because some child might get upset.

And so on.  This has been a very big thing with me for a long time, 
and I really shouldn't bore people with my rants!  ;)

Dana:
> Interesting because what use will it be to Snape to misdirect Bella 
about LV? He might gloat a little that he is in the know more than 
she is but misdirecting another DE can be a very dangerous business, 
especially one that is competing for the Dark Lord's favor.  Better 
not mess with information that can be checked with LV himself.

Ceridwen:
Others have answered this and included canon, so I'll just mention 
that Snape seems to have been careful to probe Bellatrix's current 
status with LV before going on about things.

Dana:
Bella is not stupid, she even made sure Draco did not let Snape help 
him and wipe his own slate clean. So far it doesn't seem that Snape's
misdirection is working very well now is it. Apparently Bella 
perceived Snape's words exactly as many readers do as being 
misdirection, so it missed the point entirely and I do not believe 
Snape is that dumb, but who knows?

Ceridwen:
Yes, Bellatrix got her dig in by subverting Draco!  I love this 
observation!  IF, as some others have speculated, the DADA curse 
falls into place during this chapter, then Snape can really do 
nothing right.  Maybe that's why this is called "Spinner's End" - the 
spinning has run out, the curse has fallen, and so all spinning - all 
misdirection - is at an end.

Dana:
*(snip)*
So we are to assume while the conversation is about what the Dark 
Lord wants, Snape is suddenly referring to what Dumbledore wants?  
And he isn't even sure? And Snape would take the risk going against 
LV's orders and kill Dumbledore when he just referred twice to the 
fact that LV's orders are law and he is not stupid enough to even try 
and persuade LV to change his mind about using Draco for the task?

Ceridwen:
When I read this scene, even on my first read, I wondered who Snape 
meant.  It seemed, to me, to be one of those muttered things people 
say that have less to do with the immediate situation, but more to do 
with that same situation overall.  A Real Life example might be, 
talking about buying shampoo, then suddenly thinking of shopping and 
saying, "Oh, that reminds me, I should pick up a head of lettuce."  
The only thing in common would be making a purchase.

Of course, for the ambiguous reading of Snape suddenly dropping a 
reference to Dumbledore in the middle of this scene, he would have to 
know Draco's mission, and he would have to have already informed 
Dumbledore about that mission.  Since he doesn't mention a name, he 
could get away with saying later, if questioned by LV or even 
Bellatrix at that point, that he meant LV, that he thought LV wanted 
him to complete Draco's task in the end.

Which would make sense.  Snape was sent to get a position at 
Hogwarts, he is on the scene.  If the primary goal is to get rid of 
Dumbledore, then there would need to be some back-up, and at this 
point Snape doesn't know about the cabinet ploy to get the DEs into 
Hogwarts, so he can easily believe that LV means for him to be 
Draco's back-up if he fails, along with believing that DD would 
rather he do it than Draco.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Dana:
*(snip)*
If DD is not planning to die, and will never ask this of Snape, then 
he has a little problem on his hands there as well. But this then 
goes against what all Snape fans say that the hate on Snape's face is 
because he has to do something he really doesn't want to do. If you 
are correct and Snape did what he did in Spinner's End because it is 
what he thinks DD wants him to do then again the argument in the 
forest can be no proof DD is asking this of Snape because Snape would 
not go against what he already suspected DD wanted from him. I still 
fail to see the Snape killed DD on DD's orders scenario working here.

Ceridwen:
To me, DD was setting his affairs in order from the first time we see 
him in the book.  He makes sure that Harry will be able to return to 
the Dursleys one last time in that scene, and he tells the Dursleys 
what he thinks of the way they've raised both Harry and Dudley.  I 
think - and of course this is my own opinon now, not just things I've 
read - that Dumbledore believed he would be dead by summer.  The 
injury to his hand has already occurred.  It doesn't heal throughout 
the book, and by the various wordings used, I'm not sure if the 
damage is keeping to his hand, or if it is slowly creeping up his 
arm.  I'm probably trying to read too much into the book, but JKR is 
very good at sneaking things by us.

I'm also not sure that Dumbledore and Snape have it planned all year 
that Snape will kill Dumbledore.  Snape may believe that he must do 
it in the end, and that DD will want it, but that doesn't mean there 
is a plan all laid out to that effect.  He may just be speculating 
based on what he knows of Dumbledore after working with him for 
fifteen years, and having been his student before that.  I personally 
don't see the logic in having a firm plan in place when events might 
veer too radically from a hypothetical situation.  I think that, if 
Dumbledore did indeed want this in the end, then that was actually 
when he did want it - when events made it necessary, and not before.

Dana:
I am not an ESE!Snaper because they believe he was evil from the 
start and I do not. I believe Snape is not an LV man either and I do 
not even believe he is out for his own self anymore or at least not 
as part of grabbing the bone when the other two top dogs are fighting 
for it. I believe
Snape is driven by his feelings of hate that are raging inside him 
and he cannot control. I believe he is looking for acceptance so 
desperately that he lets himself be driven by it and yes at this 
moment I believe he's disappointed in DD for not choosing him over 
the, in his mind, not special at all, Harry, which has driven him to 
the other side where at this moment LV is giving him the acceptance 
he is graving so badly.

Ceridwen:
Still, these are points that ESE!Snapers mention when discussing 
Snape's actions in HBP.  So, I do think you understand the position, 
even if you are not suggesting that Snape was always ESE.

I totally agree that Snape is not about to grab for the bone when the 
two top dogs are fighting for it.  And, I love that image!  I'm not 
convinced that Snape is so completely driven by his feelings to the 
exclusion of everything else.  I do think he has feelings you have 
mentioned, that he does see Harry as a sibling rival, but I don't 
think this overrides other things like logic or due consideration.  
There are times when he can't control his feelings.  We've seen 
examples in the books.  But when he is emotional, he is very 
obviously emotional.  It is a striking difference from his normal 
behavior.

I agree with you that Snape, to this point, has wanted to live, and 
has wanted to be admired for his skills and talents.  But by this 
point, having actively been a spy and kept things from LV thorugh 
Occlumency (given DDM!Snape here) for two years, he may be wishing 
for an end.  It can become very stressful, and a person can change 
his mind as the stress piles up.  No canon support for this, just a 
possibility based on Real Life stresses and reactions to stress.  So 
I don't think we can say for sure that he is not tired of walking the 
tightrope.  Saying that he could remain at Hogwarts to fulfill his 
spying duties is not necessarily saying that he looks forward to 
doing that.

By the way, for Carol, I'm the one who mentioned having read 
suggestions that Snape wants to go out in a blaze of glory.  I don't 
think I've read those suggestions here, but I have read them, so I 
mentioned this as one thing I have seen said by DDM!Snapers.

Dana:
*(snip)*
> Snape would never do this for Draco if he had not expected he would 
be ordered to do it in the end. Because if LV does not want Snape to 
do it
he might get killed for overstepping LV's orders. I do not believe 
Snape's friendship with Lucius goes that deep.

Ceridwen:
Yet, he makes a UV to protect Draco and watch over him.  The only 
canon we have says that the UV will kill you if you break it.  I 
don't personally think this is the case, but I have no canon.  So, 
staying strictly to what we have in the books, Snape has placed his 
life on the line and tied it to Draco's well-being.  Whether the 
third provision was expected, should have been expected, or not has 
nothing to do with the first two provisions.  If something happens to 
Draco while Snape is bound to protect him, then Snape is dead.  And 
as we saw in the book, something does happen to Draco: he almost 
dies.  This is a very profound thing to do for a friend's child.  I 
would say that the friendship is that deep.

I disagree that Snape will have to continue to clean up after Draco's 
messes.  I think the wording was clear enough to mean the particular 
task LV set for his sixth year.  There is only one task that LV has 
ordered Draco to do by the time the UV is made.  It is by default the 
only task Snape has to do if Draco cannot.  I may very well be wrong, 
along with others who may agree with me.  We'll find out in Deathly 
Hallows (only three more months!).

Dana:
I am not going to argue about what a UV can or can't do but I do not 
believe that JKR meant anything other than for it to mean the most 
serious magical bond one can commit to. Why have it in the first 
place if it means nothing serious will happen to you if you disregard 
it? If it can be overlooked that easily why would Bella be so 
surprised Snape would take it after she accuses him of always saving 
his own skin and hiding behind his orders.

Ceridwen:
I agree completely that the UV is set up as a very serious magical 
bond.  Maybe not the only one, but one that should not be entered 
into lightly.  I personally don't think you can disregard a UV once 
you have taken it.  I think that 'Unbreakable' means that it cannot 
be broken.  But again, no canon.  Whatever the actual consequences 
are, then yes, it is a very serious Vow.

IF I am correct and Snape could not break the Vow, then Bellatrix 
would be surprised that he has placed himself into such a position.  
To her, he has 'slithered out' of just about every disagreeable task 
other DEs have had to do.  Now here he is, effectively forcing 
himself to do something disagreeable if the circumstances warrant.  
He cannot slither out of this one, IF I am correct.

Dana:
That we have not seen any of their bodies tells us nothing about 
their current health status. We have been told of many of the Order 
who disappeared without a trace. Yes, they could all be hiding but 
some are gone for more than 20 years and did not even resurface after 
LV was presumed dead. I am not saying I believe they are dead or 
anything because I do not believe they are, but we also do not know 
if LV was pleased enough to not Crucio Draco just for the fun of it.

Ceridwen:
True, they may all be dead.  I believe that LV would want their 
bodies to be found, though.  It would serve as a warning to other 
DEs - Snape the guy who killed Dumbledore and was supposed to 
be "honored above all others"; Bellatrix, the most loyal; Narcissa 
and Draco, under a cloud from the moment Lucius failed to retrieve 
the prophecy and for having misused an LV artifact - dead at the 
hands of the master.  If these people can be killed, so can ordinary 
DEs.

Also, they could die from something else.  Or, Snape could.  He was 
being attacked by *ahem* Witherwings before he Apparated away - he 
may have sustained fatal injuries, something which will not be 
discovered right away since there will be no Dark Mark above his body.

We could also hear of their deaths at the beginning of Deathly 
Hallows.  And, this could be a misdirection, given Dumbledore's offer 
to Draco on the tower.  The Order could, outside of our narrator's 
knowledge, have hidden Draco and Narcissa at least and made it look 
like they had been killed.  Or, this could be completely true.

Ceridwen.