Comparing Secret Keeper plan and UV plan (Re: Why DD did not ask Snape)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 166261

> Dana:
> How would LV have known that there was no one else present at
> Hogwarts that could not have alerted the Order? Besides Snape being
> the only Order member, someone else could have notified DD when 
Harry
> went missing. And if Snape is DDM wouldn't you think he would have
> kept the names of the Order members a secret as much as possible?

zgirnius:
No, I don't think he would. Especially not of old members, whose 
names Voldemort should already know from Peter. Also, to me the 
timing of Harry's vision, happening as it did the day after 
McGonagall required hospitalization at St. Mungo's, suggests her 
disappearance from Hogwarts was part of Voldemort's calculation.

> Dana:
> I do understand where you are coming from but I do not for one 
moment
> believe that if Snape did not believe LV trusted him that he would
> have risked it all, not even for a dramatic gesture.

zgirnius:
This I don't understand, regardless of Snape's loyalties. If he 
believes himself currently a favored servant of Voldemort, why would 
he take a chance that could mean his life? This makes a lot more 
sense to me if he fears Voldemort is displeased - because in that 
situation, Snape is already in danger. He should, rationally, save 
this sort of desperate measure for desperate times, it seems to me.

Dana:
> The thing I can't get my head around is that it seems, when you look
> at the scene in the hospital wing, that most of the Order members at
> one point have asked DD about Snape's loyalties but it never made
> Snape do anything to convince them why he is truly loyal to them but
> we see him bend over backwards (lying or not) to assure the DEs will
> believe him.
> What is the difference? 

zgirnius:
I believe there are two reasons for the difference. One is personal 
and not necessarily related to Snape's loyalties: I believe Narcissa 
when she says that Snape is an old friend of her husband. Also, it 
seems likely (to me, anyway) that Snape knew Bella at school for a 
bit (a short bit, as she should be considerably older than he is at 
school), as Sirius seems to indicate in GoF. His manner towards them 
is explained in part by old friendship. And there are Order members 
(Sirius and Lupin for sure) who are old enemies, again predating 
Snape's involvement with either side, and again explaining in part 
the strained relations that exist between them.

The other reason has to do with Snape's supposed job as a spy for the 
Order, and is yet another bit in the text that I stick on my scales 
as a point in favor of DDM! Snape. Voldemort and Dumbledore are not 
the only sources of information about the activities of the sides in 
the war whose leaders they are. Useful information could be gained 
about bits and pieces of LV/DD's plans from rank-and-file DEs and 
Order members. To induce such people to drop secret information, it 
helps to be trusted and liked by them. Hence, I always thought, 
Snape's hospitality towards the sisters, his attempts to reassure 
Bella, and his solicitousness towards Cissy's distress. 

That he does not extend similar courtesy and gestures of friendship 
to Order members suggests to me that he does not want anything from 
them. 

Dana:
> Maybe there is a very good answer for it but at this moment I am
> stuck in my conclusion that it meant more to Snape that people in
> LV's camp believed him.

zgirnius:
Agreed. I think so too, I just draw a different conclusion from this.

> Dana:
> Well was Harry really in danger? LV wants Harry for himself, why go
> to all the trouble of getting the prophecy by luring Harry to the 
DoM
> if he had given the order to finish Harry off right then and there.
> Harry's friends where the only ones really in danger, because they
> could be used to convince Harry to hand over the prophecy.

zgirnius:
Voldemort was willing to kill Harry at the end of OotP, it seems to 
me. The reason Lucius gives for not attacking him directly is that 
this might cause Harry to damage the Prophecy orb. So I would guess 
Harry was in danger, yes. 

However, the point is not really important to my argument. If Snape 
risked exposure to save the secret of the Prophecy and Harry's 
friends, it was still a DDM! action.

Dana:
> I truly want to see any indication that Snape is a DDM and I am open
> to suggestions (yes, really) as long as they do not involve DD made
> him do it. 

zgirnius:
I see the situation differently, since I have no problem with the 
idea that Dumbledore would have asked Snape to kill him. However, the 
alternative explanation has been offered that Dumbledore asked Snape 
not to treat him, and what Snape cast was not really a Killing Curse. 
( There are some anomalous points in the description which could be 
either dramatic license or subtle clues.... ) Dumbledore then died at 
the foot of the Tower either of the green potion he drank in the 
Cave, or of the effects of the Ring Curse.

> Dana:
> Yes, he had a choice, he could have done everything within his power
> to clear the way for Harry, Draco and DD to be safe and then die.
> Maybe an option he did not like but it is still an option, 
especially
> considering he had brought it onto himself and why should anyone 
else
> have to pay with their lives for a choice he made?

zgirnius:
The situation on the Tower was the result of the choices several 
people made, Draco and Dumbledore along with Snape. Snape shares 
responsibility for creating it to the extent that the Vow limited his 
ability to effectively aid Dumbledore (I agree that an attempt by 
Snape to rescue DD would have been futile, achieving only Snape's 
death by UV), but this would not have been relevant if Draco had not 
chosen to introduce Death Eaters into the school, or if Dumbledore 
had not chosen to ignore Harry's warning of Draco's success ("...Age 
is foolish and forgetful when it underestimates youth....", "The 
Cave").