LV's bigger plan (was:Fawkes possible absence)

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 166403

> > Magpie:
> > A great deal of Book VI is indeed a standalone, it's just that 
the 
> > two standalones of HBP and DH form one larger story even more 
than 
> > the entire series forms a larger story. HBP is like the Empire 
> > Strikes Back of the series. That movie is most obviously part of 
a 
> > larger story, and ends with the heroes in a low moment that we 
know 
> > must be resolved, but that doesn't make it not a standalone 
movie. 
> > Return of the Jedi wastes no time un-writing stuff that already 
> > happened in ESB. Sure they start out going to rescue Han, but 
> > they're not spending their time learning that Darth Vader really 
> > didn't come to the Cloud City to use Han to lure Luke there and 
> > offer to rule the galaxy with him. That plan's over. I can't 
> imagine 
> > why we'd want to hear all about he "real" plot of HBP in DH. 
 
> Alla:
> 
> Hi,Magpie here is my problem with **great deal of book VI** is 
being 
> stand alone ( by the way, I am not sure I would buy the close 
analogy 
> with Empire strikes back, with JKR denying close parallels with 
Star 
> Wars. I mean, sure despite her denials - Harry journey is hero 
> journey too, but I am not sure if she would built her books 
> structurally as close to Star Wars. IMO of course).
> 
> How do you know **what part** of book VI is stand alone and which 
one 
> is not?

Magpie:
I don't think what she's said about it not being SW really applies 
in this case, since I'm not talking about the plot, I'm just using 
ESB as an example of a "second act" sort of story. Clearly ESB ends 
with lots of things needing to be resolved in ways that ANH and ROTJ 
do not. The good guys *lose* and that's what happens in HBP. It's 
the second act of defeat before the big victory. Voldemort 
has 'struck back' in that the good guys have just been dealt a 
really bad blow.  

As to what parts are a standalone and what are not, I look at the 
things that were resolved and the things that were not. HBP is full 
of things that are not resolved, which is what makes it the first 
part of a two-part story. The things that were solved were solved. 

Alla:
> Based on the past discussions ( forgive me if I summarise 
> incorrectly), I think you are betting that Snape's part will be 
> reversed , yes?
> 
> Well, what if it is not ( or what if it is not the only part will 
be 
> reversed)? 

Magpie:
Snape's role is not a mystery that is solved in Half-Blood Prince. 
Whatever Snape is, we have not yet gotten that scene where he 
confesses so we understand him--Draco got that in HBP. Snape's at 
the center of his own plot that's not yet been resolved, one that 
involved Draco's plot but went beyond it. So Snape's part is not 
reversed, no matter what happens. Snape's part is one of the things 
unresolved in HBP, even with him killing Dumbledore.

So whatever we find out about Snape is something we still have to 
find out--and it will encompass everything, not just HBP, though of 
course the murder of Dumbledore is part of it. But clearly that 
aspect is being set up as a question, because all the characters are 
asking it at the end of the book. 

The same is not true for the Draco Plot. The end of that story sets 
up things to be different in the next volume. It's set up in 
Spinner's End with the questions: What's Draco being asked to do? 
What's Snape going to do for him? Will Draco die? Clues to the 
answer to this are then given in the book. Harry sets out to find 
out what Draco is up to. It's got something to do with what he buys 
in Borgin & Burkes. Somebody's trying to murder someone--is it 
Malfoy? Is that what he's being asked to do? There's signs that 
Malfoy's under stress, like it's not working. He says he's being 
pressured and will be killed if he doesn't do this thing.

And ultimately what happens? A long confessional scene where it's 
revealed: He's supposed to kill Dumbledore. He sent the necklace and 
the mead. He confirms everyone thought he would die. Dumbledore 
confirms Voldemort would kill him in his place. The DEs show up to 
force him to kill Dumbledore and not back out. Snape arrives and 
kills DD in his place, just as he promised. Draco learns he's not a 
killer, and sees the glimmer of new possibilities.

Explaining what Snape's real motivations were is not re-writing HBP, 
because that aspect of HBP was not written. Giving a whole new plot 
that was really going on in that book, imo, wouldn't make HBP the 
first part of a two-volume story so much as making a lot of HBP a 
distraction in itself. I think JKR clearly knows a lot of HBP is set 
up and exposition--the Horcruxes especially, so she's got to have 
some plots that are whole to solve for you--I think Draco's mission 
and the identity of the HBP are two of them.  Also I think that 
since Dumbledore died in the service of that story, instinctively 
it's got to tie into the victory of the good side, not just be 
something that was all a big mistake that has to be fixed. 
Ironically, too, most of the rewrites have far less going on than 
the real story. They're complicated in terms of strategy, but have 
no emotion. The revealed story ought to be more emotional than the 
fake version.

The Half-Blood Prince, too, was resolved in HBP. You can't solve a 
mystery twice. Certain mysteries are solved with emotional 
confessions, including Snape as the HBP. Why solve it again?

There are plenty of things in HBP that are obviously unresolved 
without unresolving stuff that was already resolved. Draco's plan 
has been detonated and confessed--what's to drag out into another 
book? What more is there to be said about it? What good is gained 
from finding out Draco was wrong about it? That Voldemort was really 
trying to get Trelawney and Dumbledore sent her away? Would we 
really care? 

Alla:> 
> What if as Jen speculates we will learn that Voldemort was 
> behind the UV after all?Is there anything in HBP that prevents JKR 
from doing it?

Magpie:
The UV is one of the questions left open in HBP, so no answer is off-
limits--as long as, imo, it doesn't rewrite the stuff in HBP that 
was resolved. This book is the first part of a two part story, and 
so, imo, along with certain things being unresolved, other things 
are I suspect a set up to what happens later. Anything that seems to 
put any character back a couple of steps (in either direction) I 
don't think will happen. That's a problem with things like Voldemort 
secretly sending Peter in to fix things for Draco. Emotionally it's 
important that Draco was responsible for that night, imo.

As I said we could certainly learn that other things happened that 
night too, things that will be part of DH. As long as they fit 
around the stuff that was resolved in HBP they're fine. Just as 
learning about Montague in HBP didn't change things resolved in 
OotP. Finding out Umbridge was really a plant by Dumbledore to teach 
the kids something, otoh, would be anti-climactic. Re-reading the 
book would be less interesting once you knew the truth, not more. 
Anything else we learn about Voldemort's plans in HBP, if anything, 
is fine unless it sucks the life out of the emotional story we got.

Alla: 
> And again, but for JKR insistence that HBP is only first part of 
the 
> series, I would not have expected any reversals in book 7, but 
since 
> she said the contrary, I think **anything** can be reversed, not 
just 
> Snape's loyalties ( if they are).

Magpie:
I think there are different kinds of things to be reversed, and some 
of them cross the line from "surprise" to "destroying what came 
before." Like trying to shoot off a firecracker twice. Scabbers was 
revealed to be Peter. If it were later revealed that Peter was 
really Regulus it wouldn't make it more of a shock, but less of one, 
because now he's just anybody we want him to be. We don't know about 
Snape yet. He wasn't officially revealed as a traitor because as a 
double agent he was presented with two equally plausible 
interpretations held by respectable characters. Even his killing 
Dumbledore in that context wasn't a confession. It just made us more 
in need of a full disclosure confession. Returning to a plot fully 
contained in HBP like Draco's seems like just picking at a corpse. 
The signs at the end of the book point forward, not back, with Harry 
not thinking about what Voldemort's *real* plan was, but noticing a 
change in the way he thinks about Malfoy now that he knows what 
happened. The question now is what will Malfoy do next? And Snape 
too? Voldemort's plans are more effective when they're just ways to 
get the characters reacting in juicy ways.

Also it still seems like many of the "problems" with this plan of 
Voldemort's are solved if you stop looking for solutions other than 
the ones presented in canon. 

Carol:
However, I'm wondering--just who does Voldemort have left, with
Lucius, Dolohov, Mulciber, Rookwood, et al. in Azkaban and Bellatrix
being excluded from his plans as punishment for her failure to
retrieve the Prophecy? *Are* there any first-string DEs? I'm sure he
had good reason for not sending Wormtail, who probably fits into his
later plans for invading Hogwarts. But who else is left? Goyle, who
was evidently too stupid to send on the MoM mission?

Magpie:
I actually do agree with this--I wasn't so sure these DEs were 
supposed to be second string or just the DEs that happened to show 
up so we're not always seeing the same ones. Goyle was sent to the 
MoM, wasn't he? He doesn't seem too great either! But if people do 
think they're second string, that doesn't seem like a problem either.

-m