[HPforGrownups] Re: LV's bigger plan (was:Fawkes possible absence)/ some War and peace

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 166437

>> Magpie:
>> But there is a difference, imo. We thought Scabbers was a rat
> because he was
>> a rat. There was no mystery around him. Then there was this
> surprise given
>> to us--he's really a man! To do it again undermines the first
> surprise. PoA
>> also included the surpise the Lupin was a werewolf and Sirius
> Black was the
>> good guy. To change them again--to say that Lupin was really a
> vampire (or
>> even also a vampire) the whole time or Sirius really was the
> murderer...it's
>> throwing away an actual climax and making it sort of silly. <SNIP>
>
> Alla:
>
> But I agree with you. Yes, to change them again would be silly, not
> dramatic, pointless, absolutely.
>
> The only thing I am questioning is that ( sorry for being a parrot)
> whether based on HBP being a first part of two books, whether true
> change occurred yet, you know?
>
> It is like, I don't know, I guess the best analogy for me would be
> that PoA would be published in two parts and Scabbers is still a
> rat, you know?
>
> Does it make sense to you?

Magpie:
Oh yes, it does. And I think that there are a lot of things in HBP that have 
been set up exactly that way, so that we're now halfway through and on the 
wrong track about them. Definitely.

> Alla:
>
> Yeah, Draco. As I mentioned before, hate him as I am, after book 6
> my instincts are telling me that little bastard ( sorry, as I said I
> do hate him :)) would be redeemed, but do you think anything what
> happened so far stops JKR from doing what Cassie predicted? Like DE
> using him for something ( trap Snape or whatever) and Draco dying
> pointless death? I mean, what in narrative structure you see that
> may stop JKR from doing it?

Magpie:
I don't think there is anything preventing it. Before HBP the main story 
structure idea for Draco was about him being there for a reason, whatever 
that reason was. Dying could certainly be in the cards for him. I feel 
myself sort of leaning towards some kind of redemption because it seems like 
it's part of the victory, and like we need somebody to have made the choice 
to reject Voldemort and live on. But I can't say that that *must* happen. 
JKR might have something else in mind that will be just as "right" when it 
happens. I always felt that the "He's there for Harry to grow beyond him" 
didn't work structurally, especially since there seemed so little to grow 
beyond, but I'm not convinced that structurally Draco *must* have one ending 
or another. If I did I wouldn't be in suspense over what will happen to him 
and I have no idea how she'll handle it.

I think, to go back to the topic of theings being unresolved, that we can 
assume that everything that happened in HBP will have gotten Draco to a 
place that he can't turn back from, whatever it is. So, for instance, when 
people suggest that Voldemort could just make him kill someone else that 
seems wrong because that spring has sprung, if that makes sense. Draco 
couldn't approach another murder as the same person--he's actually developed 
as a character, so would have to react differently to that situation the 
second time.

> Alla:
>
> Yeah, they sort of are in that sense. But I raise you another > question - 
> what would prevail at the end , which pattern - coming of > age story or 
> hero journey path, what would influence the ending more?
>
> Can we predict that? I don't think we can for sure, personally.

Magpie:
Good point. There are certain things I'm expecting, like Harry reuniting 
with Ginny and living happily ever after. But I don't really have any sense 
of how the book will go at all.

> Alla:
>
> And again, I am not sure of that. Did you expect after OOP to see
> much more political stuff in the books? I know I did. I absolutely
> thought that JKR is interested in it and that we will see much
> broader picture of WW in HBP. Bureacracy in MoM, magical cooperation
> theme from GoF, they all appeared to me to be sort of dropped. ( Not
> quite, I grant you that, and it is possible it will resurfice in
> book 7, but still) I suppose she gave a nod on Stan Turnpike, but
> besides that?

Magpie:
Nope, I didn't expect more political stuff at all.:-) That is, I expected 
what we had before--the government being a beaurocracy and corrupt and 
getting in Harry's way. Not that I predicted HBP at all. I've said before 
that I think what happens in fandom is fans predict by writing more of the 
last book, not realizing that JKR has gone off to write the next book, which 
is always all different. Most post-OotP fics I read assumed it was going to 
be all DA all the time, and while I didn't predict what happened in HBP, I 
wasn't surprised that the DA was dropped. Things like government corruption 
have always seemed like one of the things JKR uses to arrange the more 
melodramatic situations about people in the books. Likewise stuff being done 
to fight the "war", like gathering alliances and visiting other people, 
always seemed totally outside of things JKR was interested in. That's why 
they're usually so vague.


> Magpie:
> Like any theory that's about Voldemort's strategy and what
> Voldemort
>> needs--I don't think Voldemort's that kind of villain.
>
> Alla:
>
> In general, I am not sure about that.

Magie:
I may have not been clear what I even meant by that vague statement.:-) It's 
hard to put into words, but Sydney wrote it out wonderfully in her post 
about villains. Voldemort does certainly have strategies that are there for 
Harry to deal with, but his plans seem to me to be pretty straightforward 
and symbolic, fitting him as a "monster" villain.

Dana:
Yet JKR found it important enough to include Trelawney just before the 
climax of the book. Why? It adds nothing to the plot line, it doesn't push 
the story forward because even her mentioning that someone in RoR was 
celebrating adds nothing specifically, even if it prepares the reader that 
something is going to happen, but we are already set up for that by Harry's 
own actions. The Snape part also adds nothing specifically to the plot of 
HBP or even the main plot because eventually the messenger of the prophecy
has no importance to how the receiver of the message acts on it. And it says 
nothing specifically about Snape's loyalties because if he just defected 
because he had a lifedebt to the James (the only part this scene reflects 
on), then one could as easily conclude had it not been so, he wouldn't have 
come to DD for instance if LV had chosen Neville instead of Harry.

Magpie:
It added hugely to the plot of the book! For the HBP storyline it is what 
made Harry arrange for his friends to be on watch that night, and it was 
also an important moment in the storyline Draco was going through--we needed 
that beat. It was even more important that Harry learn that Snape was the 
eavesdropper, given he would never see Snape again after this night, and 
that he was about to see Snape murder Dumbledore. That part I think is 
probably important for DH, but it still, imo, winds up with Trelawney's 
little mishap at the RoR being a very important plot moment for different 
storylines in the series so not needing to be about Trelawney at all. 
Rowling's probably been saving that little nugget of info for Harry for a 
long time!

And if Trelawney was missing I think that would need to be mentioned in some 
way also to set up DH. There is every reason to mention it, and for Harry to 
think about it. The end of HBP very, imo, self-consciously goes over things 
that are going to be important in HBP. Rather odd to to think that somebody 
was actually kidnapped that night and nobody noticed.

Dana:
The question that remains (one of many questions of course) after reading 
this book is why would LV chose Draco for a plan that had every likelihood 
of failing. We do not know if the DEs had orders to kill DD or to leave him 
be if Draco would not be able to. This is totally overshadowed by Snape's 
actions. They seem eager enough but that is proof of nothing as we see with 
the DE trying to crucio Harry while under orders to leave him for the Dark 
Lord, so if you take out the Snape line of the story then it doesn't seem 
like LV intentions were to kill DD because from the conversation in the 
beginning of the book, we are made to believe Draco will not be able to 
anyway and with his idiotic attempts, the reader is not given more 
confidence that Draco will pull it off.

Magpie:
Right, which is why "why would LV choose Draco for this plan?" is not a 
question that remains, because it's answered in the book: LV chose him to 
punish Lucius. One can think that that answer is a lie and will later be 
changed, but it's not unanswered within the book itself.

Dana:
But Draco's task might have been a different one from LV's
perspective and him succeeding in killing DD or not, might not have had any 
relation to the real task LV wanted him to perform: - getting access to 
Hogwarts and distracting DD long enough for others to perform a different 
task. The DEs we saw were clearly only part of Draco's task but this doesn't 
mean that those three people (Bella, Wormtail and maybe Narcissa) we see in 
the beginning of the book were
not part of something executed at the same time and that this part of LV's 
plan will only unfold in the second part of the larger book -> DH.

Magpie:
But there's no canon evidence there are any other DEs in the castle or 
anything else going on. It's expecting the book to disprove a negative by 
stating that there aren't other DEs besides the only ones we see, who make 
no reference to any other DEs, and there's no other DEs mentioned by anyone 
else either. Nor are there any hints that anything else has been done, 
including Trelawney being kidnapped.

Dana:
Ps: This is not a question specifically in relation to this post but I hear 
many people use the Diary destruction as a reason for LV to take revenge on 
Lucius but I can't find it being mentioned anywhere in the book 5 or 6 (and 
it was definitely not in 4) so could someone direct me to it. Maybe I am 
wrong in thinking this but it doesn't seem to be in the books but something 
that arouse outside of the books to emphasize why LV would be angry with 
Lucius. So if someone
can help me out this will be greatly appreciated. (sorry for not using a 
separate post)

Magpie:
I don't have the page or chapter, but when Dumbledore reveals to Harry that 
the diary was a Horcrux that Harry destroyed Dumbledore says he "understood" 
that Lord Voldemort's anger was "terrible to behold" when he heard it was 
destroyed. I believe this may be what makes him say that "poor Lucius" is 
probably happy to be safe in Azkaban. So Lucius is really in the doghouse 
with Voldemort. He's failed him twice, and was already slippery.

-m