LV's bigger plan / Trelawney at the funeral or not?

[Mike Crudele]

No: HPFGUIDX 166448


> Dana:
> > I do not agree that even though she herself cannot remember it 
> consciously that this would mean the memory would not be there.  We 
> have seen in the several pensieve scenes that a memory can be 
> looked at from a perspective that the owner of that memory would 
> not have been aware of at the time the memory registered in the 
> mind. Her mere presence in the room would make it possible to look 
> at the scene from a third person's view and hear her tell DD the 
> prophecy.
>
>
> Ceridwen:
> We have no canon on how memories might work in this sort of 
> circumstance, but I think so, too.  Since Trelawney's brain and 
> body, if not her mind, were still in the room, it's possible that 
> she could have a memory that LV could watch in a Pensieve.

Mike:
We do have the example of Dumbledore using "a great deal of skilled 
Legilimency to coax it [the memory] out" of Morfin Gaunt. So we know 
that a skilled wizard can "coax" a memory out of a reluctant wizard. 
But recall, the memory ends when "Morfin could not remember anything 
from that point onward". Since the same is true for Trelawney, that 
is she can't remember anything during the prophecy, why would anyone 
viewing the prophecy in a pensieve not get a stretch of *blank tape* 
during the prophecy delivery from Trelawney's memory?

Secondly, does anyone think Voldemort, skilled as he may be at 
Legilimency, would try to "coax" a memory out of anyone? I don't. 
I think Voldemort would use the same method on Trelawney that he used 
on poor Bertha Jorkins, with probably the same devasting effect on 
Sibyll, if Voldemort ever got his hands on her. But that method would 
most likely not reveal anything to Voldemort that Sibyll couldn't 
have consciously known herself. The fact that she goes into a trance 
and seems to act as a conduit for the Prophecy Demons, means to me 
that she cannot provide that information that Voldemort would attempt 
to extract with brute force Legilimency.

But none of this is true for Snape!! If Voldemort had access to a 
pensieve, why doesn't he just get Snape to provide him with his 
memory of that evening. Then Voldemort could wander around inside 
that memory as many times as he wants gathering all the info he 
wants. But Dumbledore doesn't believe that Voldemort has thought of 
this, and it is borne out by Voldemort's efforts in OotP vis-a-vis 
the prophecy orb. So maybe these Pensieves are quite rare items in 
the WW. Dumbledore seems to have quite a few things that other 
wizards don't. Is the Pensieve another of these things?


> Ceridwen:
> Imagine the implications!  He would see *everything*, from the 
> interview with Dumbledore, to the prophecy, to Snape's arrival 
> *after the prophecy*.  Not quite the way it was explained to LV.  
> Snape only supposedly overheard the first part and was thrown out 
> before it ended.

Mike:
Like I said above, he could have got this info from a Snape extracted 
memory, but I don't believe the same would be there from Sibyll's 
memory. So why doesn't he get it from Snape?

What reason could Snape have used to beg off from giving Voldemort 
his memory of the event? Or did he even have to? Does Voldemort have 
a Pensieve to "replay" memories in? Or did Voldemort Legilimence 
Snape and discover that Snape's memory ended after the second line of 
the prophecy, just as he told LV? 

I think the last one is the most likely scenario, at least as far as 
Voldemort's probable actions go. Can't speak to what Snape, at age 22 
or 23 could have done to block Voldemort's Legilimency from 
penetrating farther than he wanted.

BTW, Snape's arrival after the prophecy is over was my basis for the 
Dumbledore Does Lie scenario that I've postulated. Just a side 
thought. 

Mike, who thinks Dumbledore protects Trelawney not to protect any 
more of the prophecy from reaching LV, but because he knows she would 
end up like Bertha Jorkins if LV got a hold of her.