Snape as Neville's teacher / JKR's sexy men roll call

[wynnleaf]

No: HPFGUIDX 168490

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phoenixgod2000" <jmrazo at ...> wrote:
 Not every style works with every student.  
> But I have made a point of studying teaching styles. I find the 
> differences between teachers fascinating and I'm always looking for 
> ways to improve myself.  And in my experience, while Snape's style 
> can work with some students, it is among the most inefficient of 
> styles because far more students will react poorly to it than will 
> react positively to it.  And when it is effective, it is mostly 
> effective on older, more mature students rather than 11 year olds. 

wynnleaf
One would think so.  But I have mentioned before that in our small
school system the teacher most preferred by the 5th grade students,
not to mention their parents, is an extremely Snape-like teacher --
much like the teacher Shaun described.  My now 16 year old daughter
describes him as "ruthless," but she and most of the kids found him
fascinating.  In fact, I just read Shaun's and your post aloud to my
14 year old son and he immediately, without prompting from me,
commented on his 5th grade teacher and how most of the kids liked his
classes far better than the other kinder, more "caring," and
supportive 5th grade teachers.

phoenixgod2000
  Snape's style just isn't all 
> that great because it isn't the style that will do the greatest good 
> for the greatest number. It is just the style that is best suited 
> for his personality.  

wynnleaf
Unfortunately, without some definite data, that's only a subjective
opinion.  All anyone can do is produce anecdotes.  Shaun's story is
fascinating, not least because if I understand correctly, that really
*is* a teacher considered to be a particularly fine teacher.  In a
smaller way, the 5th grade teacher I mention is also well known in our
school district as an excellent teacher.  He wouldn't have that
reputation if kids weren't doing particularly well in his classes.

phoenixgod2000
> But were you the typical student? was what was best for you the best 
> for most of the class?  I think you are making the same mistake. I 
> think you are assuming because it worked for you it must be a good 
> system.  That is just plain bad logic :)

wynnleaf
I think the point wasn't that what worked for some students therefore
works for all -- in fact, Shaun made his point abundantly clear -- the
point is you can't say that because a teacher's style *doesn't* work
for some, the teacher is a bad teacher.

Snape's students learn.  We get several indications of that, even if
readers may choose to reject some of that evidence.  Snape's comments
to Umbridge about having a higher than typical number of students
doing well on OWLs, and the number of students in the NEWT class in
HBP both seem to indicate that a fairly high number of the students
make quite high OWL potions scores.  Sure, some like Neville do
poorly, but the few that do poorly are *not* an indicator of a bad
teacher.  Any teacher can have a few poor students.  

The self-esteem issue is often brought up, but there's a lot of debate
about educational methods and self-esteem and I realize there can be a
huge gulf in the different theories and opinions.  Many believe that
achievement in a tough classroom like Snape's ultimately produces much
better esteem than in the supportive, caring environment.  For this
argument, it doesn't matter which is correct.  The point is that both
sides of the question have legitimate arguments and *neither* side can
be characterized as "abusive" teaching simply because the other side
doesn't like the teaching style. 

> 
phoenixgod2000
> Once again, how old you were you when you were fired up by that 
> approach? I'd bet that you'd be older than Harry in that situation. 
> I can see how Snape might work with older students, but this was a 
> beginning class, trying to get across the fundamental principlesof 
> something new to children. You don't start off a fundamental 
> principles class by calling kids stupid and making a couple look 
> like fools. You just don't if you want to get the best out of very 
> young students. these aren't 15 or 16 year olds. they are eleven and 
> have absolutely no grounding in the subject snape was teaching 
> unless they just happen to have memorized their textbook which is a 
> little much to ask for the first day of school.

wynnleaf
Once again -- this mostly subjective opinion because you can't produce
data that proves that the teaching style you dislike actually produces
worse results than the one you advocate.

And the point really isn't which one produces the most successful
students -- as though we're wondering whether Snape's style get's 20%
better or worse results.  The real question here is whether Snape's
style is so awful that it's abusive.  Or whether it's so terrible that
he should be considered a poor teacher.

All we have are anecdotes.  But we can pull up anecdotes of successful
teachers (even of 5th graders), who use these methods.  I'm sure
others could produce anecdotes of the exact opposite.  But that isn't
the point.  The point is that Snape's style is a teaching style that
*is* used in the Real World and can be used (however often or rarely)
with good effect.  

JKR does *not* give us evidence that Snape's style is producing poor
effects.  One really poor student (Neville) is *no* indication of a
teacher with overall poor results.  Any teacher can have a student who
does poorly.  On the whole, JKR has chosen to give us evidence of
fairly good results -- a good number of students doing well on OWL
exams, Umbridge commenting on the advanced work in the class, a fairly
sizable number of students in the 6th year class, and Hermione doing
noticeably worse under the caring and supportive style of Slughorn
than she did under Snape.  

phoenixgod2000
> Hermione is a pretty unusual case.  there aren't many students like 
> her around. you could put her in pretty much any class and she would 
> do well if she wanted to.  She gets good grades in Binn's class for 
> god's sake!  To me that says nothing about Snape's teaching style 
> and everything about Hermione's desire to learn.

wynnleaf
Hermione is an example of the best that an excellent student can be
expected to do (not including Snape and Lily who were apparently both
brilliant *and* highly creative, the two not being the same thing).  

The best that extremely bright Hermione could do in Slughorn's class
was noticeably worse than she was able to do in Snape's class.  Yet if
Slughorn was a better teacher, shouldn't we have seen Hermione
producing the same perfect results that she got in Snape's classes? 
It would be even easier for her to do well with Slughorn, right? 
Wrong.  Slughorn, regardless how encouraging and supportive his style
appears, did not teach the level of content Snape taught. (I have to
assume Snape taught the same better methods like he wrote in the
Potions book, because Hermione can follow Snape's instructions and
produce perfect results, but follow Slughorn's required text and not
get perfect results.)

phoenixgod2000
> Harry wants to pass the class, which is a vastly different animal 
> than doing well.  And do you think if he didn't need the class to be 
> an Auror, he would even bother with the class?

wynnleaf
On this, I disagree with Shaun, but don't agree with phoenixgod2000
either.  Harry spends lots of time in his Potions classes quite
distracted by paying attention to the actions and conversations of
other students, his out-of-class concerns, or just fuming over
something (often Snape).  He regularly puts potions together without
paying careful attention.  Further, Harry tends to put off his
homework until the last minute.  

Are these problems because of Snape or does Harry do this with other
classes?  My impression is that classes like Charms and
Transfiguration, while they may be tough classes in their own right,
don't require the level of focus that potions requires.  Harry can be
distracted off and on in class and it doesn't matter.  It's hard to
tell whether Harry's problems in Potions are due to his dislike of
Snape, or whether he'd have the same difficulties in other classes if
they demanded the focus that potions demands.


> > Shaun:
> > 
> > It worked for me (-8


> phoenixgod2000
> Wouldn't work on me.
> 
> there, now our annecdotal stories cancel each other out :)

wynnleaf
No, they don't.  Your anecdotal stories combined are simply making the
same point Shaun made:  that different people do well under different
types of teaching styles.  JKR has *not* shown us that lots of
students do poorly under Snape.  Without that evidence, we can't
assume that Snape has any worse results among his students than the
anecdotal examples Shaun and I gave.

>  
> Shaun's teachers example
> > "I am the best Classics Master in this country. I am an extremely 
> effective teacher. What I am 
> > not is warm and cuddly. I don't know how to be. But I do know how 
> to turn obnoxious 
> > adolescent boys into people capable of appreciating the combined 
> culture of 25 centuries. 
> > Personally I think that's worth doing. If I can't do it without 
> making a few boys cry. Tough. 
> > They'll thank me for it as adults. Or they'll hate me. Either way, 
> they'll be better for it." 
> 
phoenixgod2000
> Sounds like an obnoxious guy with an ego problem to me. 

wynnleaf
Or someone who knows his strengths and realizes that the whole reason
he's being asked this question is because those strengths and
characteristics are acknowledged.  

> phoenixgod2000
> It's a matter of tone.  Making it a challenge is good. It's what I 
> do in my classrooms.  But you have to present the challenge in such 
> a way as to make the students want to meet the challenge. I don't 
> think that Snape does that successfully for most of the class. From 
> the way students seem to talk about Snape, he is something to be 
> endured, not someone to learn from.

wynnleaf
The way students talk about a teacher is not an indicator of how good
that teacher is.  One of the most successful teachers in our school
system (a high school teacher) is a teacher students "love to hate,"
if you know what I mean.  Only one of her courses is required, but
students crowd into her classes, voluntarily taking elective classes
from someone they're going to complain about, shout about, cry over
her decisions and supposed unfairness, and tell "I hate Ms. X" stories
about for years.  But her classes remain some of the most popular,
time consuming, and difficult in the school and apparently she stirs a
passion for her subject, since many of her students go on to teach the
same subject.

> phoenixgod2000
> Still, I am strangely okay with going out on the limb of saying that 
> he is a bad teacher :)

wynnleaf
And amazingly, many people still learn a lot from this type of
teacher.  And while some will argue that the evidence that Snape's
students by and large do well can be explained away, still the only
evidence of teaching *results* that JKR gives us are positive -- high
numbers of students getting high OWL marks, an advanced curriculum, a
good number of students in 6th year NEWTS, and Hermione unable to do
as well under the "good" teacher as she did under Snape.

wynnleaf