Slughorn favoritism/ Snape as Neville's teacher LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 168526

> > Alla:
> > 
> > I see no support that Harry saw a villain in Snape until Snape 
> > attacked him, even despite him thinking that Snape made his scar 
> > hurt.
> 
> Pippin:
> Are you forgetting the dream that Harry had his first night?
><SNIP of the dream about turban and Snape> PS/SS ch 7
> 
> The next day Harry didn't remember the dream -- but
> we know that in the Potterverse your subconscious never
> forgets anything. However open-minded Harry meant to
> be, his subconscious had already identified Snape with
> Malfoy, Voldemort and associated them all with cliches 
> about people  with hooked-noses who try to seduce you 
> to the dark side. 

Alla:

I definitely do not forget this dream. But that is my point - despite 
this dream, despite Snape looking at him with dislike (Harry POV of 
course), despite Hagrid telling him stuff about Slytherins, he is 
STILL trying to be open minded. That is much more than I would expect 
from eleven year old in the new world. I do not see Snape trying to 
be open minded at all. IMO of course.  

 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Oh I don't know ;) Snape blaming himself? Like ever?
> 
> Pippin:
> Only sociopaths have no guilt feelings. Are you now
> claiming that Snape is one of them? 

Alla:

I am not claiming anything except the fact that I am still yet to see 
in canon Snape **himself** feeling guilty for **anything**. I mean, I 
remember of course Dumbledore claiming that Snape felt guilty over 
Potters death, but I had also heard Snape giving nice explanation of 
spinning to the old fool the tale of the deepest remorse.

So, of course there is an indication that Snape may have felt guilty 
from the third party - NOT from Snape.

But that is the only instance, no? And even that is not coming from 
Snape. So, before we start debating whether Snape is sociopath or 
not, *I* am not calling him that, but I am definitely challenging 
your assumption that Snape felt guilt over anything, and Neville 
incident in particular.


> Dana:
> Sorry but are these the same qualities that enables him to take 
> lives? In my opinion it is a presumption that Snape saves lives 
> because they are threatened by Voldemort because at this moment the 
> only reason for saving Harry's life and trying to save James's life 
> that canon supports is that he owed James a debt. And it is 
> interesting that DD is not believed when he tells Harry this but 
that 
> he is believed when he states Snape can be trusted. So either DD is 
> right in both or both are equally questionable. 
><SNIP>

Alla:

Well, I don't know if I agree that it is a presumption that Snape 
saves lives because they are threatened by Voldemort, because IMO we 
do not know either way. But I am certainly agreeing that it is 
interesting that when DD tells Harry that Snape saved him in order to 
continue hating James in peace ( paraphrase), it is often dismissed, 
but when Dumbledore says he can trust Snape - it is an iron clad 
reason to believe that Snape is good.

I think that Dumbledore **can** be right in both situations or wrong 
in both, but when he is only allowed to be right in favor of Snape OR 
as Neri commented few days ago Harry is only allowed to be unreliable 
when he is commenting negatively ( the narrator of course) about 
Snape, and just cannot be unreliable when he is commenting positively 
about Snape, it is funny too IMO.

> Alla:
> He **is** practicing favoritism, who can argue with that - it IS 
> canon, but to me it is, I don't know, so much more **harmless** 
than 
> what Snape does?
> 
> Ceridwen:
> Not to most of the Weasleys we've heard from about, or seen 
reacting 
> to, Professor Slughorn.  Carol went through Ron's many negative 
> reactions to Professor Slughorn's inattentions, and mentioned the 
> various ways he minimizes Ron's existence.  A person who can't even 
> get someone's name right if that someone is of no use to him is 
> downright infuriating.  Especially when the boy sat in his class 
for 
> weeks and months and he still can't get the name right.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

You will be surprised what many people during my years of schooling 
and work did with my last and first name ( last - I guess I can 
understand, sorta, first one - not sure, but whatever) <g>

It truly becomes unrecognizable sometimes. Do I consider those people 
infuriating? Not really. I mean, it is nice when person remembers 
your name and I suppose if you meet this person many times, you hope 
he or she will do that, but as I said - whatever. I understand it is 
being infuriating, I cannot even compare it to the person who 
threatens to poison my pet, sorry. It is just apple and oranges to 
me, IMO of course.

Ceridwen:

> Molly Weasley has an unfavorable report on Slughorn:
<SNIP of canon>(HBP, Scholastic 
> hardcover, chapter five, pg. 84)
> 
> I think Molly's trying to be diplomatic about a teacher Harry will 
> probably have during the coming year.  But the bitterness in 
Molly's 
> assessment comes out when she says the Ministry is "littered" with 
> Slughorn's favorites.  Not packed, jammed, full of, but littered, 
> like they're so much trash.  He didn't have time for Arthur, she 
> says, and you know how protective Molly is of her family.  She 
> doesn't like the man, even years after school is over for her.
> 
> And, no wonder she suddenly brings up Arthur's promotion right 
after 
> saying that Slughorn had made a mistake about him.


Alla:

As I mentioned above - I am not the biggest fan of Slugghorn, I 
certainly like him much better than Snape, but he is not one of my 
very favorite characters. But no, I am giving very little weight to 
this assesment of Molly, sorry. It reads to me as pure jealousy, 
personally, nothing more that Slugghorn did not consider Arthur to be 
good enough.


Ceridwen:
<SNIP>
> And, sure Horace Slughorn has every right to invite whoever he 
> pleases into his club.  But Professor Slughorn, in my opinion, 
> doesn't have the right to treat his non-club students as nothings.

Alla:

I do not see him treating his non club students as nothings, I guess. 
Giving them less attention for sure, but nothings? I do not see it.

IMO of course.




> Magpie:
> My point was that Snape's favoritism is a sign that he should never 
be 
> teaching, but obviously favoritism in itself isn't always a problem 
at all, 
> or even unusual. Otherwise Slughorn would inspire more horror, 
since that's 
> what he's about.


Alla:

He should never teach? Why is that? I mean, if you think that teacher 
who picks favorites should never teach, I would agree, but**only** if 
you put Snape in that same category. I am not sure I get it. You are 
saying that Slugghorn's favoritism is of more harmful variety than 
Snape's?


 
> Alla:
> >
> > But I am still yet to read about Slughorn being some student's
> > boggart, I am also still yet to read about Slugghorn breaking the
> > potion.
> 
> Magpie:
> I admit, this just doesn't mean that much to me. A kid having his 
mean 
> teacher as his boggart doesn't necessarily seem that bad. Not that 
I don't 
> take the pain Neville suffers seriously for himself, but I do think 
Snape is 
> just his mean teacher. I could easily imagine many teachers people 
would 
> consider good turning up as a kids' boggart.

Alla:

Yes, and that means plenty to me :) And before I get a responce what 
about Mcgonagall as Hermione's boggart, yes, it would have meant 
plenty for me as well, had I not seen evidence from other sources 
that Mcgonagall is not harming Hermione.

 
> Alla:
> > Oh, another thing - of course he picks whoever he wants in his 
club,
> > but I also do not remember him **grading** unfairly, which IMO 
what I
> > would consider truly ruining students career.
> 
> Magpie:
> Neither does Snape ruin anyone's career grading unfairly that we 
see. 
> Slughorn, however, is the teacher building careers as a hobby and 
choosing 
> which people to introduce to others, and so perpetuating the type 
of network 
> he represents. So if we're talking about affecting kids' careers, I 
think 
> Slughorn's obviously more about manipulating that area than Snape 
is. 
> Croneyism can be a serious problem in the professional world.

Alla:

I must clarify. I absolutely believe Snape is ruining careers by 
grading unfairly ( potion breaking scene for once), but in a sense of 
turning people away from the subject, detesting Potions maybe, staff 
like that.

When people who need the class, may not be able to get in it because 
of how Snape teaches. Like what Phoenixgod said - setting unfair 
classroom. But sure, OWLS are the key.
 
> Alla:
> > It is like I don't know, just seems to me that Slug club is
> > **extracirricular" activity, something students do not have an
> > entitlement to, unless teacher picks them? While IMO they are
> > entitled to be treated decently on the lessons.
> 
> Magpie:
> Slughorn's extra curriculum activity spills over blantantly into 
his 
> lessons. He doesn't yell at people, which is certainly a plus, but 
I don't 
> know whether I'd felt like I'd been treated all that decently in 
his class.

Alla:

As I told Ceridwen, or attempted to, I just do not see it. I mean I 
do see that he pays less attention to some students, sure - ignores 
Ron, etc.

I just do not see proof that he gives them less attention than he is 
required to, if that makes sense, you know?

I think that he gives his club members **a lot** of extra attention, 
a lot. But I see no proof that other students do not get the 
**minimum** attention that he is required to give everybody.

In short, I think his club is his baby and I just do not see how the 
fact that he in his spare time takes whoever he pleases ( and not 
that I am happy with his collecting habits) shows that he ignores 
other students.


> Magpie:
> Sure they often get a pass--but why assume Slughorn seems so nice 
to kids in 
> is class? (Or assume that nice always should get a pass, 
since "nice" is 
> different than "good?") 

Alla:

I am not assuming anything. As you say below - I do not see Slugghorn 
yelling at anybody or doing what I brought up before. I think it is 
nice enough.

And no, to me nice is often same as good, not different,  have no 
desire to debate this point now, sorry :)


> Magpie:
> Yes--when I said he "seems nicer" or whatever I said I was 
intentionally 
> trying to say something that was lukewarm and didn't speak to 
necessarily 
> being good. He's not nice on the train--nor is he showing any moral 
judgment 
> in rejecting Malfoy. Alla refered to him putting Malfoy in his 
place, but 
> it's just a coincidence that Slughorn's personal protection leads 
him to 
> reject any kid with DE parents. Draco says Lucius was "a great 
favorite" of 
> his, just like many other DEs, and that's not surprising, imo.

Alla:

Just a coincidence? It seems to me that Slugghorn quite clearly 
**chose** to run from DE instead of let them recruit him. I see him 
rejecting kid with DE parents due to that choice.

I would love for him to fight instead of run of course ( I DO love my 
heroes brave :)) but I applaud him even for making that choice, which 
much more than Malfoys did.

Lucius could have been his favorite when he was not recruited yet, no?

So Slugghorn wanted rich spoiled youth in his club - I mean, if that 
is what he likes in people, why not?

Now when such youth chose to go to Lordie Voldie, then it is a 
different story, no?

JMO,

Alla