[HPforGrownups] Slughorn favoritism/ Snape as Neville's teacher LONG

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168535

> Alla:
>
> I do not see him treating his non club students as nothings, I guess.
> Giving them less attention for sure, but nothings? I do not see it.

Magpie:
I do. Maybe I wouldn't say he treats them like "nothing," but his snub of 
Belby in the first chapter is pretty impressive. Anyone in the class can see 
there are the students who matter and the students who don't. I would find 
that class very discouraging, so would that make it Slughorn's fault if I 
didn't become a Healer because of it? He would have ruined my enjoyment of 
the subject.

>> Magpie:
>> My point was that Snape's favoritism is a sign that he should never
> be
>> teaching, but obviously favoritism in itself isn't always a problem
> at all,
>> or even unusual. Otherwise Slughorn would inspire more horror,
> since that's
>> what he's about.
>
>
> Alla:
>
> He should never teach? Why is that? I mean, if you think that teacher
> who picks favorites should never teach, I would agree, but**only** if
> you put Snape in that same category. I am not sure I get it. You are
> saying that Slugghorn's favoritism is of more harmful variety than
> Snape's?

Magpie?
I'm confused. I was saying that the thread is about how Snape is a bad 
teacher, so presumably should not teach, and favoritism was being used as a 
reason for that. Slughorn obviously also favors favoritism in class.

> Alla:
>
> I must clarify. I absolutely believe Snape is ruining careers by
> grading unfairly ( potion breaking scene for once), but in a sense of
> turning people away from the subject, detesting Potions maybe, staff
> like that.

Magpie:
That's certainly a wrong thing for Snape to do and an instance of grading 
unfairly in that class, and while I don't defend it I don't think it has 
that big of an influence on Harry's grade. (Which again, doesn't make it 
okay, but that incident doesn't seem to have effected Harry's future career 
one way or another so far.)

As for turning kids' away from Potions, I can't hold up Snape to a super 
high ideal that no other teacher is held up to. Just as, even though I 
wouldn't like him as a teacher, I'm not going to blame Hagrid for turning 
students off of a career in Magical Creatures. Life is a series of accidents 
and influences. All our lives might have been different if we'd had slightly 
different experiences with teachers or with school, but in the end our life 
is our own. Maybe Harry would have been a brilliant historian if Binns 
hadn't been so boring, and he seems to have a better grasp on Potions than 
he does on History of Magic. Harry isn't turned on by any of his classes 
except DADA. Hogwarts is full of flawed teachers, like the real world, and 
they're all having effects on the students we probably can't even imagine.

Alla:
>
> When people who need the class, may not be able to get in it because
> of how Snape teaches. Like what Phoenixgod said - setting unfair
> classroom. But sure, OWLS are the key.

Magpie:
And the same is true for every other class. Why point out only Snape for 
this?  He doesn't even seem to be a teacher particularly struggling with 
getting his kids to focus and take his class seriously.

>> Magpie:
>> Slughorn's extra curriculum activity spills over blantantly into
> his
>> lessons. He doesn't yell at people, which is certainly a plus, but
> I don't
>> know whether I'd felt like I'd been treated all that decently in
> his class.
>
> Alla:
>
> As I told Ceridwen, or attempted to, I just do not see it. I mean I
> do see that he pays less attention to some students, sure - ignores
> Ron, etc.
>
> I just do not see proof that he gives them less attention than he is
> required to, if that makes sense, you know?

Magpie:
So Snape is doing wrong by not making the students personally passionate 
about the subject, and he's ruining their careers by not creating a 
classroom situation every student likes best, but it's fine for Slughorn to 
blatantly mark out certain kids as the ones worth encouraging and the ones 
who aren't--that couldn't possibly make a difference in the way they respond 
to a subject too?

Slughorn:
> I think that he gives his club members **a lot** of extra attention,
> a lot. But I see no proof that other students do not get the
> **minimum** attention that he is required to give everybody.

Magpie:
And the kids who are getting the very minimum of attention know it. I think 
Snape's students feel more of an eye on them than Slughorn's do--some would 
like less attention from him.

Alla:>
> In short, I think his club is his baby and I just do not see how the
> fact that he in his spare time takes whoever he pleases ( and not
> that I am happy with his collecting habits) shows that he ignores
> other students.

Magpie:
His ignoring his other students is what shows that he ignores other 
students.  Slughorn doesn't just forget names, for instance. He's brilliant 
at remembering names. His not remembering a name is a way of saying the 
person doesn't matter.

>> Magpie:
>> Yes--when I said he "seems nicer" or whatever I said I was
> intentionally
>> trying to say something that was lukewarm and didn't speak to
> necessarily
>> being good. He's not nice on the train--nor is he showing any moral
> judgment
>> in rejecting Malfoy. Alla refered to him putting Malfoy in his
> place, but
>> it's just a coincidence that Slughorn's personal protection leads
> him to
>> reject any kid with DE parents. Draco says Lucius was "a great
> favorite" of
>> his, just like many other DEs, and that's not surprising, imo.
>
> Alla:
>
> Just a coincidence? It seems to me that Slugghorn quite clearly
> **chose** to run from DE instead of let them recruit him. I see him
> rejecting kid with DE parents due to that choice.

Magpie:
It's a coincidence, yes. Slughorn is afraid of the DEs and is protecting 
himself. But he's fine promoting Blaise, who has the same values, because 
he's a Pureblood from a good family (and hot). If Theo Nott were another 
Sirius Black in terms of rejecting his family's values he'd be rejected too. 
Sure in Malfoy's case the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, but there's 
nothing inherently admirable about judging the kids based on who their 
parents are, be their parents DEs or Muggles.

Ultimately it's good for Malfoy that Slughorn rejects him, because the kind 
of values Slughorn aggressively promotes in his Slug Club are the same 
values Draco's been raised with and are such a turn off in him.

Alla:
> Lucius could have been his favorite when he was not recruited yet, no?

Magpie:
Sure before he was recruited. But I doubt before he had the same values he 
has now. Slughorn doesn't turn people away who, like Sirius' parents, 
totally support Voldemort but aren't DEs. If Lucius were exactly the same 
but without the mark I think Malfoy would have been welcomed with open arms.

Alla:
>
> So Slugghorn wanted rich spoiled youth in his club - I mean, if that
> is what he likes in people, why not?

Magpie:
Because his "club" is not just a school club. It's a network for the 
professional world based on croneyism. Exactly the way Lucius Malfoy thinks 
the world should work, if he might have made a few different choices in his 
members.

I don't want to sound like I'm comparing Snape to Slughorn except in limited 
ways, because they're apples and oranges. I think it's wrong of Snape to 
personally pick on Harry--it's unprofessional as well. I also don't think 
he's good for Neville--though I think he's a lot like many other people 
Neville deals with. Remember this is the kid whose family throws him off 
piers because he's incompetent. But I think Slughorn also stands for some 
unacceptable things for a teacher. Snape may do longterm damage to kids like 
Neville (though I don't think he's damaged Neville) personally that they 
would need to deal with. But Slughorn's croneyism seems to be just as 
serious to me in its own way.

justcarol67 wrote:
> So score another one for Snape. If he hadn't mentioned Polyjuice
> Potion in class, and Hermione hadn't been paying attention to Snape's
> lecture, Harry would not have known how to brew it and would no doubt
> have scored lower on the written portion of his OWL.

Bart:
I actually had a problem with that; if it was restricted, then how were 
students supposed to know about it for the OWL's?

Magpie:
It wasn't necessarily restricted by fifth year. Harry may have just felt 
like that was a particularly good question for him because he had personal 
experience to draw on. But they all might have studied what it was etc.

-m