The link and Voldemort's Legilimency (WAS Re: Snape as Neville's ...)

[Dana]

No: HPFGUIDX 168599

zgirnius:
> As a purely technical point about the link and Voldemort's 
> Legilimency, I disagree. I'd say several points of canon indicate 
> Harry can see Voldemort's thoughts - he experiences the attack on 
> Arthur Weasley as the snake, while Voldemort is possessing the 
> snake, and also he sees the conversation between Voldemort and 
> Rookwood. It seems to me that Voldemort, who is the acknowledged 
> expert at Legilimency, should be able to manage as much.
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, there is canon that Harry can see through LV's eyes but there is 
no canon indication that LV is witnessing Harry's thoughts and 
conversation besides the one time he feels the snake rise inside of 
him when he looks at DD. Harry specifically feels LV's presents when 
he does that, so there is no indication LV has done that besides that 
one time.  

zgirnius
> Also, Dumbledore clearly fears this happening, and again, he is an 
> expert on the subject. It is his explanation for why he avoided 
> Harry all year, and why he would not so much as make eye contact 
> with Harry during OotP. He explains that if Voldemort saw them 
> having a close relationship, he would seek to exploit this. How 
> else would Voldemort see the closeness of Harry and Dumbledore, if 
> not through Harry's eyes? 
<snip>

Dana:
Yes, DD fears this happening but besides that one time in his office, 
there is no indication that LV used the link that way. We only see 
that LV uses the link to make Harry think Sirius is in trouble by 
implanting a vision in to Harry's head (and I also believe by 
implanting other visions). What DD fears most of all is LV trying to 
posses Harry and we see what happens when he does that. 

The problem is that every time Harry looks inside LV's head or LV is 
present in Harry's, Harry feels it (yes, I mean in both cases) and is 
in sever pain because of it. There is no canon support LV used it to 
witness or make Harry do anything at the DoM. 

He specifically says that *the truth* is looking at him from within 
Harry's mind while he is looking at Harry directly. He wouldn't need 
to confirm the truth if he had witnessed the prophecy break through 
the scar link. Harry does not feel LV probing his mind from within 
and we see what happens twice when LV does that. So there is no 
indication that LV used the scar link to reveal this truth. Besides 
Harry can't probe LV's mind, he just witnesses certain events but 
can't go through LV's mind to see his thoughts. He can only feel LV's 
feelings and witnessed encounters but no personal thoughts LV has. 
Harry feels he is speaking through LV's mouth when LV speaks but you 
do not see Harry witness LV's thinking process and there is no 
indication that LV would have been able to do that either. 

Besides if this is true then another story DD tells falls apart 
because LV would not need Kreacher to tell him about the connection 
between Sirius and Harry because he could have witnessed it himself. 

The scar link is not an open book to Harry's mind as it is neither an 
open book to LV's mind and because Harry clearly feels when LV is 
using it even when implanting the visions, there is no proof LV 
witnessed events from Harry's POV at the DoM and his actions speak to 
the contrary actually because he clearly doesn't know DD is there and 
he reacts to Harry telling Bella the prophecy is smashed and not tell 
Bella, no he is not lying I saw it happening. He is telling Bella 
that he can see the truth looking at him. His actions also are not an 
indication that he knows through Harry that his plan went sour 
because he would know that there was no reason for him to go to the 
DoM as everything was already lost and if he knew DD was present then 
going in to kill Harry would be futile with DD there but he doesn't 
know, hence his surprised reaction when the AK is deflected by the 
statue. And we also see Harry tell Bella LV can't hear him so if LV 
had just seconds before entered Harry's mind to see what the process 
is on his plan then he wouldn't need to tell Bella that. 

I also do not believe LV would have the patients to witness his DE's 
being thwarted by 6 teenagers and not do anything so I do not believe 
he would have waited that long to enter the DoM. Another point is 
that if LV would have witnessed everything from Harry's POV from the 
moment he implants the vision then Snape should be death because then 
he also would have witnessed Harry trying to warn Snape and LV would 
also know through Harry that Snape is the only Order Member still at 
Hogwarts and that Harry had no interaction with any other adult 
besides Umbridge and Snape before he takes off to the DoM. 


zgirnius
> Finally, there is that one scene where when Harry and Dumbledore 
> make eye contact, Harry is suddenly filled with hatred and wants to 
> bite Dumbledore. That this happened precisely when the eye contact 
> was made seems an enormous coincidence. I would think that instead 
> Voldmemort was looking through Harry's eyes and the sight of 
> Dumbledore brought on those feelings.
<snip>

Dana:
Precisely, Harry feels when LV is doing that and we do not witness 
Harry feeling LV rise inside him besides that one time (and when LV 
tries to posses him). I do not think it is a coincidence because LV 
just had been made aware of the connection when he felt Harry's 
presents when he possessed Nagini and bites Arthur. That is what that 
scene is an indication off not LV being present in Harry before. It 
was just minutes before these events occurred that LV suddenly enters 
Harry's mind and when he does he can't hide his hatred for DD when he 
sees him there. 

DD might have been right that there was a possibility that LV might 
discover the link was there and might use it the other way around as 
we see he did but that does not proof that LV knew anything about it 
before this event. And DD indicates it as such in the last prophecy 
when he tells Harry; `Sirius told me you felt Voldemort awake inside 
you the very night that you had the vision of Arthur Weasley's 
attack. I knew at once that my worst fear were correct: `Voldemort 
had realized he could use you.' (pg 730 UKed Paperback: Chapter the 
lost prophecy) and why he arranged occlumency lessons. If DD had 
believed this had already been so then why didn't he have Snape teach 
occlumency from the beginning of the year? DD's actions were 
precautionary but it is no indication that LV had ever been in 
Harry's head before that night. 

The main problem I have with the idea that LV witnessed it all 
through Harry is Snape, yes indeed because LV would have known Snape 
was teaching Harry occlumency and he would know through Harry that 
Snape was the only one that could have warned the Order so why isn't 
Snape death for actively trying to thwart LV? Because I believe Snape 
informed LV of both and I believe this is what made LV happier in 14 
years and why LV came to the DoM. 

If he witnessed it from Harry's POV then he would have known DD was 
present at the DoM but the only one that did not know DD was there, 
because when he alerted the Order DD wasn't at headquarters, was 
Snape and I believe Snape counted on Sirius not staying but did not 
count on Sirius leaving it up to Kreacher to tell DD (and if Kreacher 
would not know then DD would not have detected Kreacher was lying to 
him), so DD would not have known where everybody had gone to and why 
LV thought he could take the risk of entering the DoM because if LV 
had known DD was there then he would never have done so. It was the 
only one he ever feared and he would not willingly go in and have a 
confrontation with DD if he could help it and risk being expossed. 
(LV would have had no problem taking care of the Order just like DD 
had no problem dealing with the DE's)  

zgirnius:
> The scar link and Legilimency are not unrelated. As Snape explains, 
> usually Legilimency requires that the subject be in the same room, 
> and that the subject and the Legilimens make eye contact. The link 
> makes it so that this is not necessary for Voldemort and Harry. The 
> whole point of the Occlumency lessons is to prevent Voldemort from 
> Legilimensing Harry (sending him visions) through the link. If it 
> were not a form of Legilimency that Voldemort is using, then 
> Occlumency would not be the thing Harry needs to learn to block it.

Dana:
Yes, they are related because DD fears that LV could spy on him 
through Harry using legilimency *through* Harry's eyes and why he 
avoids Harry's eye contact. LV could not spy on DD by just his mere 
presents if DD tells Harry nothing. So why is DD avoiding eye contact 
with Harry if it is just Harry's mind LV has to probe? Harry can't 
use legilimency on DD so there should be no fear of Harry retrieving 
anything from DD's mind. LV could have seen DD's relation to Harry by 
just witnessing Harry's despair about DD avoiding him and it would 
tell him enough. And the same goes for Sirius connection to Harry and 
according to DD, LV did not get that from Harry but from Kreacher 
telling Narcissa. 

Legilimency needs eye contact and it is still needed for the link 
between LV and Harry because Harry can't view inside LV's head and 
know what he is thinking, he experiences feelings and feels what LV 
feels and he looks through LV's eyes and hears through LV's ears but 
it is still Harry's mind because Harry thinks it is him seeing and 
hearing these things. So if that is anything to go by then LV could 
use Harry's eyes when he has eye contact with DD and what DD fears LV 
might use Harry for. 

Harry does not have an inside view of LV's head because if he had 
then Harry would know what LV is planning and what LV is after but he 
doesn't and we see no evidence it is any different for LV and his 
mentioning he sees the truth in Harry's worthless mind IS an 
indication that LV is using legilimency on Harry at that specific 
moment and why we do not hear Harry mentioning he feels the LV 
probing his mind.  

Pg 716 chapter the lost prophecy.

His terrible snakelike face white and gaunt, his scarlet, slit-
pupilled eyes *staring*


`So, you smashed my prophecy?' said Voldemort, softly, *staring* at 
Harry with those pitiless red eyes. No, Bella, he is not lying
 I 
*see the truth looking at me* from within his worthless mind


End quote canon.

DD does not want Harry to learn occlumency because LV has a chance to 
Legilimens Harry but because Harry needs to learn to block LV out 
because as Snape tells him he might use Harry by making him think or 
do things. That is not what Legilimency is. And keeping information 
from Harry would be enough of a safety precaution.

LV has no use for Harry's thoughts but he has use for the link so he 
can plant visions and because he is stronger then Harry, he can use 
Harry as a vessel for his own purposes, like looking out of Harry's 
eyes and legilimens the people Harry is looking at but he still needs 
to have eye contact to see Harry's own thoughts and if he witnessed 
the events that he does not need conformation Harry smashed his 
prophecy and not just telling Bella a lie. And Harry's despair about 
losing Sirius would make LV even think the raid was succesful 
wouldn't it so if he was going by Harry's thought then LV would have 
thought it was a done deal. And as we see Harry can't explore LV's 
thoughts at will and I do not believe LV could explore Harry's at 
will either even if he is able excess Harry's mind at his own chosing 
it would just make him witness Harry surroundings like Harry 
experiences his when he is that far into LV's mind. 

There is still no proof LV was present inside Harry during the DoM 
raid because Harry never felt the dormant snake inside him or be 
immobilized by the pain it cases him, the entire time he is there. 
Every time Harry has an interaction with LV through the link, Harry's 
scar hurts. There is no way for LV to use Harry without Harry feeling 
it so the absence of pain means the absence of LV, it is that simple. 

Pg 419 chapter St Mungo's hospital.

It happened in a fraction of a second: in the infinitesimal pause 
before Dumbledore said three, Harry looked up at him – they were very 
close together – and Dumbledore's clear blue gaze moved from the 
portkey to Harry's face. At once, Harry's scar burned white-hot, as 
though the old wound had burst open again
 

End quote canon.

Harry's dreams about the door at the DoM are in my opinion not LV's 
thoughts but his feelings on wanting to get inside because again if 
Harry could see what LV was thinking then he would know why LV wants 
to get inside the DoM but he doesn't and personally I believe that 
the dreams Harry has from inside the DoM are implanted visions as 
well, to make sure Harry knows what the place looks like when it is 
time to plant the final vision. I do not believe that after Rookwood 
tells LV he can't get it that LV needs to go to the DoM and wander 
around it because if he did then he could have taken the prophecy 
while he was there. 

After Harry sees Rookwood tell LV, he also has no other visions about 
LV's interactions with his DE's, so to me it is looks like LV is 
actively blocking Harry's link to him only allowing him to see what 
LV wants him to see and it is Rookwood who told LV how the DoM looks 
inside and where the prophecy is located and why Harry only sees what 
the prophecy room looks like but not the other rooms or doors and if 
LV had been actually there this information would have been more 
accurate. 

zgirnius:
> Snape also explains that the eye contact rule is not applicable to 
> Harry and Voldemort. If it were, there would be no danger to Harry 
> while at Hogwarts - he would only have a need for Occlumency if he 
> found himself in the physical presence of Voldemort.

That is not what Snape said:

Pg 471 chapter: occlumency. 

`He has deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that 
is to say, he has realized he might be able to access your thoughts 
and feelings in return –`

`And he might try and make me do things?' Harry asked

`He might,' said Snape 

The learning occlumency is specifically to prevent LV using Harry's 
mind to make him do things because if DD was just afraid that LV 
would try to spy on him then LV is no threat to Harry at Hogwarts as 
well because he would just need to avoid Harry as much as possible 
and that would be it (and we see he thinks that is enough at first as 
he does not have Harry learn occlumency before) but that is not what 
DD feared because after Sirius tells him Harry felt LV inside him, DD 
was very afraid LV would try to posses Harry and make him do things 
and DD feared it would not be his downfall but Harry's. It is not 
about Harry's thoughts and his knowledge that DD fears LV might get 
access to but he is specifically afraid that LV might control Harry 
through the link and that is not the same as legilimency.  

Let see what DD tells us about the link Harry has through his scar. 

Pg729 chapter `the lost prophecy'. 

`For it became apparent,' 
 ,  `that I was correct, and that your 
scar was giving you warnings when Voldemort was close to you, or else 
feeling powerful emotions,'

`And this ability of yours – to detect Voldemort's presence, even 
when he is disguised, and to know what he is feeling when his 
emotions are roused – has become more and more pronounced since 
Voldemort returned to his own body and his full powers.'

`More recently,' said Dumbledore, `I became concerned that Voldemort 
might realize that this connection between you exists.' 

`Sure enough there came a time when you entered so far into his mind 
and thoughts that he sensed your presence. I am speaking of course of 
the night when you witnessed the attack on Mr Weasley.' 

`You see,' Dumbledore continued, `I believed it could not be long 
before Voldemort attempted to force his way into your mind to 
manipulate and misdirect your thoughts and I was not eager to give 
him more incentives to do so.' 




`I feared the uses to which he would put you, the possibility that he 
might try and posses you. Harry, I believe I was right to think that 
Voldemort would have made use of you in such a way.' 

Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated to night would 
not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. 

End quote from canon. 

DD never feared LV legilimensing Harry for specific information about 
anyone but he feared LV would try to take over control of Harry's 
mind and that this would lead to Harry's destruction and what would 
be a threat to Harry anywhere he might be and why DD wanted to have 
Harry learn to close his mind in the hope it would make Harry able to 
block LV out. 

Yes, DD did not want to give LV incentives to use Harry but not 
because he feared LV legilimencing Harry but because he was afraid LV 
was going to try to use Harry against DD and DD's feelings for Harry 
just as we have seen him do with using Harry's feelings for Sirius. 
DD was afraid he could not hide these feelings well enough if LV 
preformed legilimency on DD through Harry. 

If DD really felt LV was a threat through legilimency, like he is 
with Draco in HBP, then he would not have allowed Snape to go near 
Harry and teach him occlumency and risk Snape's cover but we know 
Snape is a good enough occlumence so DD does not fear LV legilimens 
Snape by using Harry. 

DD only changed his view after the Rookwood incident because now he 
knew that LV had knowledge about the protection on the prophecy and 
it became even more important for Harry to close his mind so LV could 
not use Harry to get to it for LV as he was not going to go get it 
himself. But then what happens? Snape cancels the lessons. 

JMHO 

Dana