[HPforGrownups] Re: LV's reasons for showing at the DoM/Slughorn's favoritism/Hagrid and Draco

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168659

<snipping what I think I get>

Dana:
And don't you think it would have created problems for Snape if Harry would 
have gone to him? If Harry would have gone to him in his office instead of 
asking for help in front of Umbridge wouldn't that have caused a problem of 
the whole plan falling apart because Snape would not have any other way than 
to check in with Sirius in front of Harry because otherwise Harry would have 
told DD Snape refused to help him.

Magpie:
I think I see. So you're saying that LV would have to assume that Snape must 
act like an Order member at all times, so his whole plan includes Snape 
doing that--so anything Snape does as an Order member is automatically 
assumed to be in LV's plan. So that way it is Lucius' fault because he was 
expected to be expecting the Order at some point, because Snape could only 
hold off for so long.

I see the logic. I have a couple of problems with the scenario.

First, I think anyone would assume that DD had ways of knowing what was 
happening at Hogwarts and with Harry independent of Snape because he's 
Dumbledore and it's Hogwarts. LV doesn't necessarily know all the members of 
the Order--it makes more sense for everyone to not know everyone else. 
That's how the DEs work. There could also be other means DD could use when 
he's not in the buildling. I also think that as the person who made the plan 
LV has plenty of reasons to show up other than Snape telling him he sent 
Dumbledore. And anyway, if that was something LV assumed could happen he 
would have been prepared for it on his own.

Second, there's a little too much here that seems to rest on it being 
Snape's job to "look after" Harry when that is not Snape's job. Harry is not 
guarded all the time at Hogwarts, and Harry being with Umbridge in the 
forest or not is still Harry accounted for at Hogwarts. It might actually be 
considered a good thing that Umbridge is keeping him busy.

Then there's the moment with Snape waiting "as long as he possibly could" to 
alert the order. Why that moment when according to this scenario Snape has 
already made all these whopping mistakes like allowing Harry to be alone 
with Umbridge?

Also, your own question applies--why couldn't LV just have Snape taken out 
some way so that Harry couldn't go to him for help? He could have done 
something as simple as tell Snape to inhale the wrong Potion fumes at the 
right time so he wouldn't be of help. That seems a much more obvious 
solution than to allow Snape to actively work against him.

It just seems like Snape's always most in danger of being in trouble in this 
scenario at moments chosen to correspond to what he actually does rather 
than at moments that really seem to threaten things, which also means that 
Dumbledore is the big bad Snape has to worry about towing the line with, 
while LV is helpfully making his plans around Snape having to work against 
him for Dumbledore's sake.

I can certainly see how your scenario fits into the canon, but I don't see 
how it really is suggested by it. I would see it more if, for instance, we 
knew that Snape alerted the Order in response to something on his own side, 
like if somebody else came in and told him Harry was gone and he just had to 
do something and watched him do it etc., and we could see that he tried to 
stall as long as possible. Snape can handle situations like that pretty 
well, as he did with Umbridge and the Veritaseum.

So it seems more like starting with the results we happened to wind up with 
and then making them the plan in retrospect. So there's barely anything 
Snape could do (short of getting killed fighting for Harry openly) that 
wouldn't be part of LV's plan, while everything Snape does at Hogwarts show 
he's going against DD's orders even if they're not related to LV.

wynnleaf:
Plenty of people were very, very much opposed to slavery, who were yet quite 
racist in terms of their attitudes of superiority over other races. It's 
perfectly possible for Slughorn to have racist attitudes of the superiority 
of pureblood wizards over muggleborns, and yet be completely opposed to any 
agenda that would seek to harm muggleborns or in any way limit their 
freedoms, or seek to keep the two groups separate.  I don't think he 
supports the agenda of the DEs.  He just has a degree of their same 
attitudes of superiority.  And he doesn't even have it to the same degree as 
the DEs appear to have it.

Magpie:
Yes, I agree. I think he knows many of his Sluggies became DEs, and that Tom 
himself was a favorite. I don't doubt at all that Slughorn is totally 
opposed to murdering Muggle-borns, just not to the point where he wants to 
examine his own comfortable ideas about racism. Slughorn doesn't even live 
in a society where this kind of prejudice is as much of a given, which might 
be said for abolitionists, it seems to me (though he is at least old so 
perhaps carrying it over from a time when it was more common--though even 
there you'd think that the first Voldemort war would have knocked it out of 
him). It just seems like nowadays we're used to looking at a lot of the 
attitudes abolitionists have and making that same distinction.

>> Alla:
>> Ugh, if I were Hagrid, Draco would have gotten from me nice long
> detention
>> for a year for not listening to safety instructions. Right after
> he comes
>> back from hospital wing that is. Maybe that would have taught him
> something.
>> Forbidden Forest 365 days a year.

>> Magpie:
>> If Hagrid did that I would hope the Slytherins in his classes
> would make him
>> very sorry he did. Once everyone stopped laughing about Hagrid
> punishing
>> anyone else for not paying enough attention to safety precautions.
>
>
> Alla:
>
> Really? I mean, obviously the length of the detention ( 365 days a
> year) was an exaggeration. But do you think Malfoy should have been
> punished **at all**? For not listening to safety instructions, I
> mean? By all means together with other Slytherins he was laughing > with? 
> Or should he just had been let do as he did. Maybe that would
> have stopped him from participating in this disgusting ploy of
> having Buckbeak executed and Hagrid fired, IMO.

Magpie:
No, I don't think he should have been punished at all. He learned his lesson 
well without that (and detention in this case from Hagrid probably would 
have undermined it as it would in a similar case between Harry and Snape--I 
don't think it would have changed his mind about Hagrid and Buckbeak one 
bit, except perhaps to make it even worse if possible). He was already 
punished by being hurt, which taught him the lesson better than anything 
else would have--and we see this in canon even years later.

And also Hagrid didn't present his safety precautions well to begin 
with--Malfoy wasn't reading the scene in the book where Hagrid's line was 
there in print with everything else. He got a comment that should have been 
repeated and made clear and explained, not just thrown away as "don't insult 
'em or it's the last thing ye'll do" in a moment when he happened to be the 
kid that was whispering with his friend, as kids do throughout class. And 
Hagrid should have been having the kids approach the advanced animal 
individually anyway, as he did with Harry. This scenario hit on Hagrid's 
flaws as well as Draco's.

So Hagrid had a chance to learn something too on his first day. I think the 
last thing he needed was to convince himself safety was his forte. His first 
instinct is already to blame the victim, as he does with Ron in PS/SS, and I 
don't think that would make him a better teacher.

Alla:
> At least every Saturday in the Forbidding forest would have been
> nice if you ask me. But Hagrid is too nice for his own good.

Magpie:
I don't think he's always too nice for his own good. I certainly don't see 
this incident as proving he's nice one way or the other.

-m