[HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Draco

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168675

 Alla:
>
> Okay. So do you think Harry also should not have been punished after
> him using Sectusemptra on Malfoy? After all he was having guilty
> feelings about it, doesn't it mean that he learned that unknown
> curses should not have been used?

Magpie:
Making a mistake in class has never been cause for detention for anyone. 
Hexing someone else is (even if you have some minimal feelings of guilt). So 
no, I don't think it's particularly strange for the faculty to consider one 
a reason to give detention for one and not the other.  Mistakes are part of 
the classroom experience. You don't get detention for doing something wrong 
that you're being taught how to do.

Alla:
> Do you think Neville should not have been given that lizards or
> toads cutting detention in GoF? I mean it is a pretty safe
> speculation to make that he was hurt after breaking another cauldron
> or whatever he got his detention for?

Magpie:
I think that's a better analogy and no, I don't, though in Snape's case at 
least he's responding to a pattern--five cauldrons with no detentions. The 
text ascribes that detention to Snape's being more vindictive than he has 
been, which would indicate Harry doesn't think people should get detentions 
for making mistakes in class either. And that Snape hasn't given detention 
for it in the past.

Alla:
> I mean, Malfoy gets rewarded from Snape for being hurt, he is also
> shamelessly gloats that he can use his injury to gets Hagrid fired.
> Shouldn't he also be punished for that?

Magpie:
No. Nor should Harry get detention for saying something Malfoy thinks is 
obnoxious. Snape doesn't need to be rewarding Malfoy to want to irritate 
Harry.

>
> Magpie:
>> And also Hagrid didn't present his safety precautions well to
> begin
>> with--Malfoy wasn't reading the scene in the book where Hagrid's
> line was
>> there in print with everything else. He got a comment that should
> have been
>> repeated and made clear and explained, not just thrown away
> as "don't insult
>> 'em or it's the last thing ye'll do" in a moment when he happened
> to be the
>> kid that was whispering with his friend, as kids do throughout
> class. And
>> Hagrid should have been having the kids approach the advanced
> animal
>> individually anyway, as he did with Harry. This scenario hit on
> Hagrid's
>> flaws as well as Draco's.
>
>
> Alla:
>
> I think it is irrelevant to the question whether Malfoy should have
> been punished for his mistakes.

Magpie:
Yes, I thought it was a separate issue. Malfoy should not have gotten 
detention because a) he just made a mistake in class and that's not 
something you get detention for. But b) I don't think it would be 
particularly good for Hagrid as a teacher to take this attitude.

Alla:
 Hagrid's mistakes I mean. I think it
> is debatable whether he presented his safety precautions well
> enough. But even if he did not present them well, he **presented**
> them, Malfoy did not listen. Why should he not been punished for
> that?

Magpie:
For the same reason Neville and Harry and Ron shouldn't be punished every 
time they don't listen in class by anything more than what they get--they 
wind up doing something wrong. Kids don't listen in class every minute. 
Neither do adults. This particular time ought to teach both Malfoy and 
Hagrid something. Malfoy that he needs to always listen when Hagrid is 
talking about a dangerous animal because it might not be obvious when he's 
saying something really important, and Hagrid that he ought to be far more 
clear about danger. Malfoy learns his.

Alla:
>
> I mean do not get me wrong, if Hogwarts has the program where they
> take away yearly bonuses or give warnings to teachers ( I wonder how
> much Snape would have gotten of those), I am fine with Hagrid being
> talked to by Dumbledore or whatever mentor, but I fail to see why it
> should relive Malfoy from punishment.

Magpie:
Because Malfoy didn't do anything to be punished for any more than Neville 
or Harry do when they get something wrong in Potions, or the Trio does when 
they chat through Charms or fall asleep in History of Magic.

Alla:>
> Would it make him feel different about Hagrid? I doubt it, if he
> felt that way about Hagrid before he even met him, but maybe it
> would have a punitive effect in his mind.

Magpie:
He got more of a punitive effect getting slashed by the hippogriff.

> Alla:
>
> Well, since this victim IMO made his life hell for the whole year, I
> think his instinct was right personally.

Magpie:
I don't think blaming the victim is a great attitude to take just in case 
the victim turns out to be someone you don't like. Ron didn't seem to 
appreciate it much when he was the victim. Sometimes victims get angry. 
Malfoy did something wrong in class and didn't follow directions properly. I 
don't think he had any reason to be punished for it--it was an obvious risk 
of the class Hagrid took (without seeming to realize it).  And I don't think 
it would have done much to help Hagrid's own class experience if he did 
punish him. Nobody in canon ever seems to think it's odd Malfoy doesn't get 
punished.

-m