[HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and Draco

[Magpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 168682

>> Magpie:
>> I think that's a better analogy and no, I don't, though in Snape's
> case at
>> least he's responding to a pattern--five cauldrons with no
> detentions. The
>> text ascribes that detention to Snape's being more vindictive than
> he has
>> been, which would indicate Harry doesn't think people should get
> detentions
>> for making mistakes in class either. And that Snape hasn't given
> detention
>> for it in the past.
>
> Alla:
>
> I am sorry I got confused with the negatives in question and
> answer :) Do you mind clarifying whether you think Neville should
> have gotten this detention or not? Thanks.

Magpie:
Sorry, I seem to like those kinds of constructions and it gets me into 
trouble.:-) No, I don't think Neville should have gotten the detention.

Alla:
> And pattern or not pattern, I think we see an example of student
> getting the detention for something he did wrong in class. I have no
> doubt that Snape was being vindictive of course.

Magpie:
But it's presented as Snape being vindictive and weird when he does it. It's 
not even normal for Snape, since Neville's melted cauldrons before. My point 
of it being a pattern is that with Snape it could perhaps at least be a 
question of his thinking he has to do something more drastic to get Neville 
to stop doing it. It's not something that's normal to give detention for 
doing something wrong in class. If it were Neville would never get out of 
detention. Instead, quite rightly, he can throw Flitwick across the room 
while he's learning to do charms.

Alla:
> We also see Harry punished by Umbridge for what he did in class, do
> we not?

Magpie:
I don't think he gets detention for getting something wrong in class, no.

To use another example, McGonagall gives Draco detention for not handing in 
his homework twice, which is perfectly reasonable. He doesn't get detention 
for being given something to do in class and not getting it right.

> Alla:
>
> Huh? I was saying that if it is okay to reward Malfoy for being hurt
> ( make Ron cut his roots for him and we know that he is perfectly
> capable of doing so himself), then why is it not okay to punish him
> for being hurt due to his carelessness IMO?
>
> What does it mean "Snape doesn't need to be rewarding Malfoy to want
> to irritate Harry."?

Magpie:
It means Snape isn't rewarding Malfoy for getting hurt. Malfoy's getting 
hurt just added a different variation on Snape being his usual annoying self 
to Harry and Ron.

>> Magpie:
>> For the same reason Neville and Harry and Ron shouldn't be
> punished every
>> time they don't listen in class by anything more than what they
> get--they
>> wind up doing something wrong. Kids don't listen in class every
> minute.
>> Neither do adults. This particular time ought to teach both Malfoy
> and
>> Hagrid something. Malfoy that he needs to always listen when
> Hagrid is
>> talking about a dangerous animal because it might not be obvious
> when he's
>> saying something really important, and Hagrid that he ought to be
> far more
>> clear about danger. Malfoy learns his.
>
> Alla:
>
> Well, sure I know that it can teach them something and no, I do not
> buy that Malfoy learns his lesson. I think he is still being
> obnoxious brat to Hagrid IMO.

Magpie:
The lesson was to listen in class, and that he learns on his own. Nobody has 
to learn to like Hagrid in class. But everybody has learned to be extra 
careful and not trust Hagrid. I don't think they'd take too kindly to the 
idea that they're facing not only possible danger but also detention if they 
make Hagrid look bad by losing a limb. Snape might be able to carry that 
sort of thing off but I don't think Hagrid would last long trying to do it. 
Malfoy's not even that much trouble. I don't consider bluntly asking about 
safety in class to be acting like an obnoxious brat--especially when Hagrid 
responds with "Don't ask stupid questions."

Alla:
>
> I know we also disagree on that, but I think Malfoy with his
> behaviour traumatised Hagrid a lot. Him being framed again and all
> that.

Magpie:
Actually, not so much framed this time.

> Alla:
>
> Sure, but I do not think that anybody would have been very surprised
> if he was punished. IMO of course.
>
> But again my main point is that I wanted him punished. Well, scene
> with Hermione was nice as carmic justice, but I wanted something
> more.

Magpie:
And if Hagrid did punish him I'd love to see his class become even more 
"traumatizing" for him. Because we probably find the whole storyline equally 
repulsive, but for different reasons.

-m