On the perfection of moral virtues/Snape and Harry and some Ron as well

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 168867

> > Alla:
<SNIP>
> > Not, not for me, not even close, because I see Snape right now 
as 
> > child abuser, traitor and murderer. I sincerely doubt that Harry 
> > will ever be any such thing, even if he kills Voldemort in his 
> > sleep, which I doubt he will.
> 
> 
> Pippin:
> But that's ESE!Snape, and nobody is suggesting that ESE!Snape
> could be Harry's moral equal without some serious repentance,
> though I suppose he could be Harry's moral equal if that happened. 
> "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be white as snow."

Alla:

Not necessarily - even if Snape is revealed as not traitor and not 
murderer ( hopefully not), he will still forever remain child abuser 
for me, so I am talking about that Snape as well.


Pippin: 
> But I'm talking about DDM!Snape of course.

Alla:

I understand, but see above. I hope that JKR will not make Snape 
innocent of DD!M murder with fake AK or something like that, but 
even if she will, there is nothing which can save him from "abuser" 
label in my eyes.

Pippin:
> Snape carrying the prophecy to Voldemort is big stuff but
> I have an idea that it's been  balanced out by Harry's false
> accusation of murder.

Alla:

Wow. No, for me it is so not will be balanced. Potters are dead, 
care to take a bet that if Snape will die it will not be because of 
anything Harry says or dies? :)

Pippin:
 I can just see Harry pursuing  Snape
> for half of DH, and then, just about the time Harry realizes
> that Snape must be innocent, the Ministry will re-authorize
> the use of the Unforgivables against suspects.  If Harry 
> tells  them Snape is innocent, Snape will be killed by 
> Voldemort. But if he doesn't, Snape will be killed by Aurors --
> and if Harry does save Snape, Snape will hate him worse 
> than ever, just like he hated James... Ooh, I could hardly
> wait to see how that comes out!

Alla:

Okay, personally I hope nothing like that will ever comes out.


Pippin: 
> But then  we come to the parting of the ways, because for
> me, the classroom insults *are* small stuff and Rowling 
> treats it that way, IMO.  Snape being a meanie is *nothing*
> compared to the Slytherins, some of whom were seventh 
> years and adults, all jeering at Ron for a whole year and 
> calling him the WW equivalent of poor white trash.
> 
> Rowling's solution was not to hex the Slytherins or get them 
> to beg forgiveness but to let  Ron learn that his nerves didn't 
> come from Slytherin jeering, they came from his own
> fears telling him that he was pathetic and he'd never
> be good enough. 


Alla:

We are totally parting the ways, because no matter how bad was 
Slytherins insults to Ron, what Snape did is the abuse of power to 
someone who has no such power. IMO of course.


Pippin: 
> Harry needs to learn that same lesson, IMO: his potions 
> failures didn't come from Snape sneering at him, they came 
> from Harry comparing himself to others and thinking, "I'm not
> as good as you." The HBP's book was Harry's phony Felix
> potion. Though the recipes were superior, the actual 
> mechanics of potionmaking, stir this, then add that,  
> were just the same as in Snape's class, and that's 
> the stuff Harry used to screw up on.


Alla:

And still Harry specifically notes in OOP that he performed better 
when Snape was not in the room. It is my opinion that Snape 
contributed hugely to his potion failures, but we shall see how this 
will play out of course.

You can be right, but I am keeping my fingers crossed that your 
theory will not be proven in book 7.

I will write my apology to Snape letter if it will, I promise 
again ;)

But for some reason I am feeling rather confident now that no matter 
what the reasons for murder were, Snape fired very lethal, 
very**real** AK on very alive DD.

I am always happy to eat a crow though.


Phoenixgod:

> And I'm not talking about the teaching or the meanness or the 
ordinary
> point taking.  Snape, lest anyone forget about it, was the spy that
> told Voldemort the prophecy.  In a very real way, he got Harry's
> parents killed. He may not have pulled the trigger, but he was the
> informant. He was part of the process that left Harry an orphan at 
the
> tender mercies of the Dursleys.


Alla:

I do think that part of the reason I would never understand the idea 
that Snape is feeling guilt over Potters death is certainly my 
personal ideas of how person feeling guilt acts. I could not imagine 
myself having contributed to the life of misery for the child to act 
that way towards him.

I can imagine myself being sooooo humble near that child. No, not 
necessarily being extra nice to him, but certainly going out of my 
way to not contribute to his misery. I would feel that I have no 
right to be angry at this child for anything, if I feel true remorse 
that is.

I would feel that I have no right to hurt that child anymore, that I 
hurt him in such a huge way, that I should atone for that.

What Snape does to him in the classroom, it is so incompatible for 
me how guilty person would act.


Phoenixgod: 
> Harry would be justified in never forgiving Snape ever.  Hell, in 
my
> book he would be justified in killing Snape with his bare hands 
(but
> I'm a bloodthirsty type).  In the list of ways they have wronged 
each
> other, Snape's scale is so overbalanced its just plain 
ridiculous.  


Alla:

As I said, I believe that JKR can sell me almost any Snape, but 
certainly my wish is to see him suffer - dead, sure, I will do a 
happy dance, but not from Harry's hand. He is not worth it in my 
view :)

I think fate will take care of Snape if he has to die.

Phoenixgod: 
> A lot of people seem to forget that.  Hell, in my least favorite
> Dumbledore scene in HBP he forgets that.  I don't think I ever 
found
> Dumbledore more unlikable than when he just shoves Harry's very 
real
> angry and frustration under the rug.

Alla:

Yes, in HBP it was my only Dumbledore "how dare you" moment.

wynnleaf:
<SNIP>
> Yes, Snape has done things which give Harry cause to hate him.  
But 
> if Snape turns out to be loyal to Dumbledore, then he's also done 
a 
> great deal for which Harry ought to learn at least some degree of 
> appreciation.  And to date, Harry has not been willing to 
> acknowledge that.  Even before he learned that Snape had anything 
to 
> do with his parent's deaths, he still could not acknowledge or 
have 
> the slightest appreciation for Snape's actions which had saved his 
> life or the lives of his friends. <SNIP>

Alla:

Well, if actions speak louder than words, I believe that Harry in 
his own way had acknowledged that Snape is a trusted order member 
willing to share with him that Padfoot was supposedly captured.

I mean, if Snape running his mouth at Harry counts less than him 
saving his life in PS/SS for example, sure the fact that Harry was 
trusting Snape counts as some sort of acknowledgment, no?

I think that Harry was trusting Snape despite not liking him before 
Sirius' death and the fact that Harry was doing it, shows to me 
again how much more mature Harry is in his teens than Snape is in 
his thirties.

I mean, sure Harry did not thank Snape for PS/SS, I cannot blame it 
after the way DD framed Snape reasons for doing so, but those are 
just words, right, apology I mean?

I am replying to thread in general, not to your post, but I totally 
think that if words are cheap ( NOT my idea, I do not really buy 
it), it should go both ways.

If people are Okay with Snape talking dirty at Harry as long as he 
saves his life, then I think that Harry trusting Snape with saving 
his godfather, knowing how much they hate each other should account 
for "a lot"

IMO,

Alla