GoF fight between Harry and Ron (WAS:Re: On the perfection of moral)

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 168884

Carol earlier:
> > But, but, but Harry *doesn't* tell Ron that someone is trying to
kill him. That, to me, is the point. Again and again, starting with
deciding not to tell Dumbledore that he hears a voice hissing "Kill,
kill, kill!" in CoS, Harry hesitates to tell someone something
important, in this case "[because] it would sound very melodramatic."
> > Imagine the difference in this conversation if Harry had actually
 said "To kill me" instead of "I dunno," and followed up with
Fake!Moody's theory (actually, his modus operandi, but Harry doesn't
know that).
> <SNIP>
> 
Alla:
> 
> And to me it is so **not** the point. I think that Ron should have
trusted Harry when Harry tells him he did not do it, period. If Ron
can only trust Harry when Harry would mention that somebody is going
to kill him, that's not the level of trust I think should exist
between two friends.
> 
> Come to think of it, on the top of my head, I do not remember Harry
**ever** lying to Ron during these four years. I am sure such examples
exist, but I do not remember them, so at least I do not think there
are too many.
> 
Carol earlier:
> <SNIP> 
> > Ron gives his reasons for thinking that Harry is lying and why 
Harry would want to put his name in <snip>. Harry gives him *no*
reasons to believe that he's telling the truth. He simply insists that
he didn't put his name in the goblet and then gets angry at Ron for
not believing him, implying that Ron is stupid to think as he does 
(even though Cedric thinks exactly the same thing).
> <SNIP>
> 
Alla:
> 
> They are not people who just met, they are best friends, basically 
brothers. I think Ron should have higher level of trust in Harry than
what he showed.
> 
> Yes, just because Harry said so IMO.
> 
> Again, this to me was the fight between friends, I certainly do not
think that it foreshadows Ron's betraying Harry or anything like that.
> 
> But no, I do not think that Ron should have trusted Harry only if
Harry gave him convincing reasons.
> 
> I did not do it should have been **more** than enough IMO.


Carol responds:
But do you agree that if Harry had told Ron the full truth, repeating
Fake!Moody's words, that Ron would have believed him?

Fake!Moody says:

"Maybe someone's hoping Potter *is* going to die for it. <snip
attribution and reactions> Imagining things, am I? Seeing things, eh?
It was a skilled witch or wizard who put the boy's name in that goblet."

Madame Maxime asks what evidence Moody has for his theory, and
Fake!Moody says, "Because they hoodwinked a very powerful magical
object! It would have needed an exceptionally strong Confundus Charm
to bamboozled that goblet into forgetting that only three champions
compete in the tournament . . . I'm guessing that thye submitted
Potter's name under a fourth school, to make sure he was the only one
in his category" (GoF Am. ed. 279).

IMO, had Harry told Ron what "Moody" said, Ron would have been behind
him 100 percent. But he didn't trust Ron with the truth; he was afraid
of sounding melodramatic.

I still think Ron's reaction, if not admirable, is perfectly
understandable (even for a best friend who's like a brother since
brothers who love each other fight in RL and in fiction) and would
have been avoided altogether if Harry hadn't been worried about
sounding melodramatic. As you said yourself, Ron *knows* that people
are out to kill Harry, and he would have believed the story, but Harry
didn't give him that chance.

As for Harry lying to Ron, I can think of at least one example off the
top of my head--Harry lies about a dream he had (Ron missing a save in
Quidditch) just to be spiteful, but IIRC, that doesn't happen until
OoP. (I don't have the quote handy because I don't remember exactly
where in the book it is--something related to Divination, I think.)

My point is that Ron is hurt because he knows that Harry would have
put his name in the goblet if it weren't for the Age Line--Harry is as
excited as anyone else and dreams of glory (though Ron doesn't know
*that*). He even tells Ron that he would have put his name in with no
one looking in case the goblet spit it out. Harry has always included
Ron in his adventures before, so Ron is understandably hurt about
being seemingly excluded this time. If Harry had told him the truth
about why he thinks someone else put his name in the goblet, Ron would
certainly have believed him. As it is, *from Ron's perspective*,
"Someone else must've done it" sounds like a feeble cover story.

Yes, Ron should have believed Harry. But Harry should have trusted Ron
enough to tell him what "Moody" said, in which case they would have
worked together. He told Hermione, after all. He ought to have told
Ron as well. Friendship works both ways.

BTW, I don't know about you, but I keep seeing Harry suppressing
information over and over in the books--with DD in CoS, with Lupin in
PoA, with Ron in GoF, with Sirius Black early in OoP and with the DA
later in the same book. (He also deliberately refuses to tell DD about
Umbridge's poison pen, but I understand why he does so.) Maybe you
don't find it frustrating, but I do--even though close calls, near
misses, suppressed information and all that are necessary to the plot
and add to the suspense, I sometimes want to shake Harry and say,
"Just tell him (or her)!" (Even when he asks Mr. Weasley to search the
Malfoys' house again, he forgets to mention what I imagine will be a
very important detail, the secret chamber under the drawing room.
Think, Harry! Think!)

Anyway, I'm not *blaming* Harry for the quarrel with Ron in GoF. I'm
saying that it's an unfortunate mutual misunderstanding. Both of them
need to trust each other. Ron learned his lesson. I'm not sure that
Harry has fully learned his. He has only summarized the Prophecy, for
example, not related it word for word to Ron and Hermione, and he has
to be talked into letting them come with him to search for Horcruxes.
And he does seem to think that anyone and everyone should believe him
"because I said so," especially at the DA meeting. Sorry, Harry, but
that's not the way life works, even in the WW. Even with your best
friends. (And believing Harry led to disaster at the MoM, remember?
Had Harry listened to Hermione and realized how improbable it was for
Voldemort to be torturing sirius Black in the MoM, Black would still
be alive.)

Prophecy Boy and Chosen One or not, Harry is not always right, and
"Because I said so" is not a sufficient reason to believe anyone. Ron,
his best friend who has loyally stood by him and risked his life in
the chess game and by entering the CoS (not his fault that the wall
fell in) and blocked his path, deserves to be told the truth.

Carol, still clearly seeing Ron's side and wishing Harry could have
put himself in Ron's place