Ron and Hermione supporting Harry WAS: Re: GoF fight between Harry and Ron

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 168960

> Alla: 
> Well, I guess I believe that they did not support Harry enough when 
> they should have been. Since we know that it turned out to be not a 
> waste of time at all, but quite the contrary. IMO disaster could 
> have been averted had people believed Harry that Malfoy was up to 
> something.

Montavilla47:
I think you may be right about that, Alla.  Of course, it probably
would have meant Draco's death (and possibly Narcissa's), but 
if you don't care about them, you don't and I certainly am not
going to say you're wrong.

Although... (attack of the ellipses!)
DD did know that Draco was up to something--so you can't 
say that he didn't believe Harry.  Could everyone else have 
overridden his idiot plan to save Draco by risking other 
students?  Hard to say.

But I take your point, and let's just assume that it would
made a difference if Ron and Hermione had been fully 
behind Harry's belief about Draco.  Would that have changed
their actions?  They could not have foreseen the necklace
or the wine.  And they still dutifully drink the FF potion and 
stand guard when Harry tells them to.


> Montavilla47: 
> > It does them real credit that they cared enough about Harry to 
> > follow him to the MoM, even though Hermione had big doubts 
> > about going.  But you can't get around the fact that it was a 
> > disaster.  Yes, the Ministry acknowledged Voldemort's return and
> > that's a big plus.  But they *didn't have to go* and the reason
> > they did go was because they got carried away by Harry's 
> > emotional needs.
> > 
> > If I were Ron or Hermione in HBP, I'd be putting the brake on 
> > Harry's spider-sense, too.   
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Sure, it does them real credit that they chose to stick by Harry 
> knowing what huge danger awaits them being friend of chosen one. I 
> completely agree.
> 
> On the other hand, I do think that in the book it is sort of not 
> really working after five years if they would suddenly decide they 
> are afraid and do not want to do it anymore. Does not work as noble 
> reason for me and all that.

Montavilla47:
I must have been unclear.  I don't think that Ron and Hermione 
were afraid.  To me, they are simply being *rational.*  They 
understand that actions have consequences and perhaps blindly
following Harry's instincts isn't always the best course of action.

If I look at Ron and Hermione's actions towards Harry in book 5
and 6, I see the both of the being more thoughtful and smart.

Ron, particularly, struggles with his "best friend" role from GoF
on.  First, he struggles with his jealousy of Harry (which we've
discussed before).  Then, in OotP, he struggles with the 
concept of outdoing Harry (by becoming a prefect--and then
being on the team when Harry isn't).  In HBP, he has to deal
with his own emotional needs in relation to Harry *and*
Hermione.

In OotP, I see Hermione trying to manipulate things 
in order to help Harry out of the emotional swamp he's
wandering in.  I might be reading that into her actions, 
but I think the D.A. was partly created to help a friend 
channel his rebellious energy into a more constructive
area than self-mutilation by detention.

Alla:
> In PS/SS, I sure applaud Harry decision to go after stone, but did 
> he really need to?

Montavilla47:
I think he did, but I think the need was more personal than 
anything else.  The whole thing was set up like an eleven-
year-old's obstacle course.  Harry even suggests that DD
wanted him to have the chance to tackle it.  

Alla:
> In PoA once again, if we put life debt aside, which I agree would 
> play a role at the end, I believe that Sirius and Lupin would have 
> dealt with Peter quite nicely without Harry interference.

Montavilla47:
I agree with you about that one.  But I wouldn't blame Harry for
the moon coming out.  

Alla:
> I know about not wanting them to be murderers, etc, I am just saying 
> that it sounds really bizarre to me if Ron and Hermione would 
> suddenly think that they need to disregard Harry telling them that 
> Malfoy is up to something, because some things went terribly wrong 
> in OOP. Ron was hurt in PS, CoS, PoA, it is not like it never 
> happened before and it never stopped him.

> I think that I am sticking with JKR needing nobody listen to Harry 
> and let Malfoy to continue assasination attempts for story needs.

> I think it again sacrifices Ron and Hermione loyalty ( not 
> completely but IMO still does) for plot.

Montavilla47:
But I don't see them *disregarding* what Harry says as much as
applying their own intelligence--rather than blindly going along.

The time they *don't* believe him is when Harry's reasoning is 
off.  Harry's right that Draco used the necklace, but his theory
that Draco bought the necklace that day in Knockturn Alley was
faulty. 

Actually, since I think Snape was DDM, I think it's a real pity
that DD kept trying to put Harry off, instead of having him 
consult with Snape on the project.  You know, Snape might 
just have taken Harry suspicions seriously.  :)

Montavilla47