Ron and Hermione supporting Harry WAS: Re: GoF fight between Harry and Ron

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 168973

> > Alla:
<SNIP>
IMO disaster could 
> > have been averted had people believed Harry that Malfoy was up 
to 
> > something.
> 
> Hickengruendler:
> 
> Not really. Dumbledore knew from the beginning that Malfoy was up 
to 
> something, and nothing changed, because he didn't want Malfoy to 
know 
> that he knew. Similarly, after Harry told McGonagall about his 
> suspicion after the Katie incident, McGonagall may have not really 
> believed him (it's hard to tell), but nonetheless she went 
straight 
> to Dumbledore with and told him about Harry's suspicion. So 
> ultimately Dumbledore, (who was the victim of disaster you meant, 
I 
> assume) had all the informations Harry had as well, and possibly 
> more. He just decided not to act on them. Therefore would have 
made 
> really a difference, if Ron and Hermione had believed Harry simply 
> because of his hunches? 


Alla:

Dumbledore knew that Malfoy was up to something indeed. Did he know 
what **exactly** Malfoy  was up too or was he just keeping a good 
pocker face on the Tower? I am not really sure. I guess it all 
depends on how much one thinks Snape told him <g>.

I am especially  not sure that he knew about cabinet.

But if he **indeed** knew about everything and indeed decided to let 
DE enter in school, well sure then you are right - nothing would 
have changed regardless of Ron and Hermione believing Harry, LOL.

By the way, I know some people believed him - Arthur went to check 
out too, I just was unpleasantly surprised that Ron and Hermione 
were not on the same page with him - and it is not like any of them 
liked Malfoy before and would be surprised that he is up to 
something, you know?

I guess I was doubly surprised that they did not believe him not 
just about any person, but Malfoy of all people.


  
>  
> Alla:
> 
> > I think that I am sticking with JKR needing nobody listen to 
Harry 
> > and let Malfoy to continue assasination attempts for story needs.
> > 
> > I think it again sacrifices Ron and Hermione loyalty ( not 
> > completely but IMO still does) for plot.
> > 
>  
> Hickengruendler:
> 
> I find this a bit extreme. It's not, that they weren't loyal to 
him, 
> they just were unsure of his accusation. And they still helped him 
in 
> the end watching over Draco. I mean, there's a huge difference 
> between disloyalty and simply second-guessing someone's wildest 
> theories. ;-) 


Alla:

Sure, I think I stand corrected. I think it sacrifices their loyalty 
for this one particular accusation, it is just something that runs 
through the book, so feels more than it was probably.


Hickengruendler:
I mean, they did have a point, when they said Malfoy 
> wasn't the only one visiting Borgin and Burkes. That said, it did 
get 
> really annoying, when they tried other explanations for 
*everything*. 
<SNIP>


Alla:

Yes, yes, yes. Oh my goodness - YES. Really annoying.

> > Alla: 
> > Well, I guess I believe that they did not support Harry enough 
when 
> > they should have been. Since we know that it turned out to be 
not a 
> > waste of time at all, but quite the contrary. IMO disaster could 
> > have been averted had people believed Harry that Malfoy was up 
to 
> > something.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I think you may be right about that, Alla.  Of course, it probably
> would have meant Draco's death (and possibly Narcissa's), but 
> if you don't care about them, you don't and I certainly am not
> going to say you're wrong.
> <SNIP>


Alla:

Do I care about Draco's death and Narcissa? Draco is planning 
assasination of Dumbledore and almost kills two students in the 
process. Do I think that DD looks more than a little hypocritical 
when he lets little brat run in the school and do it, if he indeed 
knows everything? YES, I absolutely do.

Would I care if Draco and Narcissa died? Certainly not if that means 
that bigger disasters could have been averted. As I said several 
times, I used to hate Draco with passion, still do before last scene 
of HBP. After last scene of HBP I still cannot stand him, but I at 
least think that he will get what he signed for and more. Karma, 
justice and all that - life of the fugitive, etc.

Again, do not get me wrong, I certainly understand what JKR is doing 
with it - DD saving Draco soul, etc,etc. It is just I think DD comes 
out very hypocritical to me - because I think he is risking lifes of 
innocent students while trying to prevent one bastard from becoming 
a murderer. So, I would prefer DD not knowing at least all the 
details personally.

Montavilla47:
> Although... (attack of the ellipses!)
> DD did know that Draco was up to something--so you can't 
> say that he didn't believe Harry.  Could everyone else have 
> overridden his idiot plan to save Draco by risking other 
> students?  Hard to say.
> <SNIP>

Alla:

See above

> Montavilla47:
> I must have been unclear.  I don't think that Ron and Hermione 
> were afraid.  To me, they are simply being *rational.*  They 
> understand that actions have consequences and perhaps blindly
> following Harry's instincts isn't always the best course of action.
> 
> If I look at Ron and Hermione's actions towards Harry in book 5
> and 6, I see the both of the being more thoughtful and smart.


Alla:

LOLOLOL. Hermione as thoughtful and rational in HBP? Let's agree to 
disagree on that. I see her as completely blinded by jealousy that 
Harry bested her in Potions with the book.


Montavilla47: 
> Ron, particularly, struggles with his "best friend" role from GoF
> on.  First, he struggles with his jealousy of Harry (which we've
> discussed before).  Then, in OotP, he struggles with the 
> concept of outdoing Harry (by becoming a prefect--and then
> being on the team when Harry isn't).  In HBP, he has to deal
> with his own emotional needs in relation to Harry *and*
> Hermione.

Alla:

Agreed actually. 

> Montavilla47:
> But I don't see them *disregarding* what Harry says as much as
> applying their own intelligence--rather than blindly going along.
><SNIP>


Alla:

As I told to Hickengruendler, it increases my annoyance that they 
did not believe him about Malfoy of all people. Somebody they were 
always on the same page about. And their intelligence turned out to 
be wrong, so I do not see them applying it :)


Let me say again - I think Trio's friendship is one of the most 
touching friendships I read about in literature. I love them 
together.

I think my point when this thread started was to say that staff 
happens, that's all.