Responses to Marietta

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 169327

Alla wrote:
><snip>
 
> What I **do** is definitely put it more than level of the stody
group of talking about OWLS, I have no book with me now, but will
gladly give canon where they talk about defending themselves about 
Voldemort. To me it seemed pretty clear. IMO of course.

Carol responds:

As I do have my book with me, I'll oblige. :-)

Hermione begins by telling the group <snipping hemming and hawing>,
"Harry here had the idea--I mean, I had the idea--that it might be a
good idea if people who wanted to *study* Defense Against the Dark
Arts--and I mean, *really, really study it,* you know, not the rubbish
Umbidge is doing with us because no one could call that Defense
Against the Dark Arts--well, I thought it would be a good idea if we,
well, took matters into our own hands" (OoP am. ed. 339). 

Anthony Goldstein shows his agreement that Umbridge is a useless
teacher) by saying "Hear, hear!" (339). 

Hermione adds, "And by that I mean learning to defend ourselves
properly, not just theory but the real spells--" (339).

Michael Corner reacts to this first suggestion that they might
actually need to defend themselves with, "You want to pass your
Defense Against the Dark Arts OWL too, though, I bet?" to which
Hermione responds, "Of course I do." Then she stammers that she also
wants them to be properly trained "because Lord Voldemort is back."

Marietta shrieks and slops butterbeer down herself. (Should have left
at that point, Marietta!) Others shudder and yelp, but everyone looks
at Harry for, presumably, confirmation or more information. (All
they've heard so far is DD's statement that Voldemort murdered Cedric
Diggory, which they can be excused for not believing since Voldemort,
is he isn't dead, is some sort of disembodied spirit so far as they
know. Only a few of them know Harry well enough to believe him without
supporting evidence.) 

Zacharias Smith immediately asks the question that's probably on
everyone's mind, "Where's the proof You-Know-Who's back?"

Hermione says that DD believes it, and Zacharias retorts with, "You
mean Dumbledore believes *him*."

Harry realizes that at least some of the students are there, not to
learn to protect themselves (or, like the fifth-year Ravenclaws, to
learn DADA to pass their OWLs), but to hear Harry's story first-hand.
And, unfortunately for group solidarity and confirmation that they
need to defend themeselves, Harry's responds defiantly, "What makes me
think Voldemort is back? I saw him. But Dumbledore told the whole
school what happened last year, and if you don't believe him, you
don't believe me, and I'm not wasting an afternoon trying to convince
anyone." (Good going, Harry.)

(BTW, there's a quick reference to the barman listening in. that's in
addition to Mundungus and Willy Widdershins. Nice place for a secret
meeting, but at least Aberforth is on DD's side!)

Zacharias points out dismissively (and correctly) that DD didn't give
any details and says that he thinks they all want to know what really
happened, at which point Harry loses his temper and says, "I don't
want to talk about Cedric Diggory, all right? So if that's what you're
here for, you might as well clear out."

Hermione tries to take control by mentioning the practical matter of
meeting times, and Susan Bones saves the day by asking if it's true
that Harry can cast a Patronus. The subject changes to Harry's
accomplishments, essentially establishing his qualifications as a
better teacher than Umbridge. Even Zacharias wants Harry to "show ...
us ... this stuff" (despite his lingering distrust of Harry's veracity).

Finally, Hermione says, "...the point is, are we agreed we want to
take lessons from Harry?" (339-343).

My apologies for the overdose of canon, but we see here some of the
reasons why the kids attended the meeting (not counting Cho's crush on
Harry and her unwise choice of companions). We see that none of them
except Harry's close friends have any real reason to believe that
Voldemort is back, especially given the Daily Prophet's push in the
other direction. (Note that Seamus, who is Harry's roommate, still
doesn't fully believe it because Harry treated his questions exactly
as he treats Zacharias's, and he doesn't show up until the last
meeting.) But many of them want to learn DADA as a school subject, and
most of them (rightly) view Umbridge's theory-based course as worse
than useless.

What happens is that those who came to hear Harry's story don't get
their questions answered, but those who want to pass their DADA OWL
(including Zacharias, I'm sure) have that initial motivation
reinforced by the anecdotal evidence that Harry can cast a "corporeal
Patronus" and that he killed a Basilisk, as well as the reminder of
the tasks he performed in the TWT. Marietta, a sixth year who has
already passed her OWLs and whose mother is a Ministry employee, has
no reason to believe Harry and no real motivation to learn his DADA
spells. She may even have learned some of them from Fake!Moody the
previous year (though not a Patronus, of course). But since the group
is not yet against the rules, she signs the parchment, not knowing
that it's hexed.

> Alla:
> 
> I am putting it on the level I think it is shown in canon - had DA
been expelled, their futures would have been ruined and yes, I think
Umbridge would not have stopped from using Cruciatus on them, not even
on Harry only.

Carol responds:

Marietta does know about the threat of expulsion, but how often have
we heard that same threat from various teachers (Snape, Madam Hooch,
Hagrid) without a single instance of actual expulsion except Hagrid's
own long before for supposedly releasing the monster from the Chamber
of Secrets? In any case, being a Ministry loyalist, she probably
thinks they deserve it. She certainly doesn't believe that Harry or
anyone else is in danger from Voldemrt; she believes her mother and
Umbridge and the Daily Prophet that Harry is a delusional and possibly
dangerous liar. Nor can she possibly suspect that dear, sweet Dolores
Umbridge, who speaks of protecting the students in her opening speech,
would torture students in her detentions or consider using the
Cruciatus Curse on them.

I'm not saying that Marietta is innocent, but I'm saying that she
could not have known, despite the decrees, that Umbridge was capable
of physical cruelty or the danger that Harry would have faced had he
been expelled.

Alla:
> 
> Brilliant? No, but trying hard - in my view yes. They **saw** the
traitor the minute she spoke, don't they? It would help them to 
neutralise traitor, did it not?
> 
> Would be nice that the hex would not let traitor open her mouth, 
sure, I agree. I am just saying that what she did served deterrent 
purpose. <snip>

Carol responds:

Ah, the heart of the matter. Hermione's hex *didn't* deter Marietta or
anyone else from reporting the group to Umbridge (though it might have
done so if she'd told them about it!) All it did was reveal the
traitor after the fact--and punish her long after the action was
committed. If she were going to punish and humiliate her for a week or
so, fine, perhaps, though the usual ostracism for snitches would have
served the purpose equally well. But it didn't "neutralize the
traitor." It only silenced her after the fact. (Shacklebolt's Memory
Charm silenced her permanently.)

Your second paragraph sums it up beautifully: Hermione should have
cast a hex that wouldn't let a traitor open his or her mouth. *That*
would have been a deterrent, not a punishment--more effective and a
lot less cruel.

And what's more, the perfect spell exists in canon. If the DA, in
Hermione's view (if not in the view of the members themselves) is a
junior version of the Order (as well as the study group she introduces
it as being), why not protect it with a Fidelius Charm?

Carol, hoping that Hermione finally learns in DH that just being on
the right side doesn't justify her every action