Likeable Slughorn (was: Villain!Dumbledore )

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 177838

> Magpie:
> I've said this before, but I just don't get it. Whether or not he's 
> a fanatic, how are his "old ideas" any less bigoted? 

Mike:
Why should I think that someone in the Potterverse under the 
impression that purebloods would be inheritantly more magical than 
Muggleborns is bigoted? Please note, I'm saying and I think Slughorn 
is portrayed as believing *more magical*, not better people, not 
untarnished, and not superior quality wizards. There is a difference 
in the way Slughorn's "ideas" are presented. IMO, he isn't shown as 
being bigoted based on blood status. He is shown as believing 
that a pure-blood witch or wizard will be more *talented*. Which is 
not the same as saying Muggleborns are bad people. 


> Magpie:
> I can't believe anybody, if faced with a guy saying, "Ah yes, your 
> mother was black. Could have knocked me over with a feather, she 
> was so bright! Funny how that happens sometimes!" Or: "Your mother 
> was very good at math--can you imagine? A girl good at math!" 

Mike:
I wouldn't couch any of the bigotry in these books as racial. Based 
on the Nazi imagery that I thought JKR was paralleling, I would call 
it ethnic. 

So it was more like, "Your mother was a helluva distance runner. 
Never would have guessed she was Jewish." And if Jewish people 
weren't historically known for their distance running... does that 
make him prejudicial against Jewish people? Yes, but not necessarily 
bigoted. Bigoted connotes dislike or disfavor based on the ethnic 
condition, imo. I don't read that in Slughorn. (BTW, I have NO IDEA 
if Jewish people are or aren't good distance runners, it's just an 
example.)


> Magpie:
> Who cares if it's "old-fashioned?" Not that I'm conceding that it 
> is--I'm not. He's still picking out kids for different treatment 
> based on their bloodline. 

Mike:
I care, and I disagree. I think people should be judged in context. 
If Slughorn's ideas are misshapen by the predominant opinion of a 
bygone era that he was brought up to believe, that should be taken 
into account. That's the way I read the books, that in the past it 
was commonly thought that pure-bloods would be more *talented* 
wizards. The real measuring stick is whether Slughorn has changed 
with the times. I think he has softened his position with regards to 
Muggleborns. He's quite taken with Hermione right off the bat, and 
only after does he realizes she is the Muggleborn that Harry spoke of.

As for picking out kids based on bloodline, explain Ron. Sluggy's 
already drafted his younger sister (based on hexing talent not 
blood). What taint does Ron exhibit that precludes him from getting 
this supposed "blood" preference?



> Magpie:
> I think the whole idea of Slughorn's (and sometimes Phineas') 
> bigotry being "old-fashioned" comes from the sketchy world-
> building. Who says it's old-fashioned in canon? Nobody that we see.

Mike:
I don't concede that Slughorn is bigoted, not in my view of the term 
nor in my impression of Slughorn. If you want to discuss whether 
Slughorn's view that pure-blood wizards are more talented is old-
fashioned, that I'll address, and to some degree I already did above.

As to the rest, yes, I'm sure I'm drawing on real world history to 
think the talented pure-blood motif was handed down. I don't think it 
an untenable position especially if, as you said, JKR was probably 
counting on us to draw that parallel from RL images.
 

> Magpie:
> Err...and that's good? That Harry first bristled at Slughorn 
> stating that his mother surprised him by being talented because she 
> was a Muggleborn, and then softened up after the guy praised him 
> for talent he didn't have, which he chalked up to his blood? 

Mike:
Who said it was good? I just said I had a different initial 
impression than Harry, and that Harry changed his impression. Though 
he still probably never actually "liked" Slughorn. I liked the guy 
and I still do. Harry has come off the dime from his initial 
impression, that's all. 

BTW, which he chalked up to his *Mother's Muggleborn* blood. At what 
point do we give Slughorn credit for seeing past his prejudices 
towards Muggleborns to realize that they are just as good? I've been 
given enough examples to see that Slughorn doesn't act on those 
prejudices, at least not any more. And I call them prejudices, not 
bigotry.

Mike