Likeable Slughorn (was: Villain!Dumbledore )

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 177846

> > Magpie:
> > I've said this before, but I just don't get it. Whether or not 
he's 
> > a fanatic, how are his "old ideas" any less bigoted? 
> 
> Mike:
> Why should I think that someone in the Potterverse under the 
> impression that purebloods would be inheritantly more magical than 
> Muggleborns is bigoted? 

Magpie:
First, because being "more magical" is the most important thing in 
this world, second because it's not true and is the basis for 
Pureblood superiority and three because in this series more magical 
also means better student, iow, smart. There's no reason for him to 
believe anything positive or negative about students this way based 
on their blood. Well, frankly, he ought to stop judging the students 
on what they are going to give him, period. It's not just a problem 
with Muggle-borns. Even if he thought they were equal they're 
disadvantaged in not having any magical relatives for him to suck up 
to.

I mean, this is all obviously coded at least some of the time as 
being "like racism" and it's not too uncommon for bigots to say that 
other races are just more violent or less intelligent while saying 
this doesn't make them less good as people. Slughorn's a teacher. His 
job is teaching these kids magic. He has different expectations based 
on their blood--and teachers can do a lot of damage with low 
expectations. And it's not like Muggle-borns have the background to 
know he's not right in his judgment.

Mike:
 IMO, he isn't shown as 
> being bigoted based on blood status. He is shown as believing 
> that a pure-blood witch or wizard will be more *talented*. Which is 
> not the same as saying Muggleborns are bad people. 

Magpie:
"Welcome to my class, John. I don't think you're a bad person, but I 
don't expect you to do as well in my class as the students with 
better blood--the ones I'm automatically inviting into my special 
club designed to network them into the positions of power in society 
because they've got powerful relatives." If I were on the receiving 
end of that, I think it would feel like bigotry. 


> > Magpie:
> > I can't believe anybody, if faced with a guy saying, "Ah yes, 
your 
> > mother was black. Could have knocked me over with a feather, she 
> > was so bright! Funny how that happens sometimes!" Or: "Your 
mother 
> > was very good at math--can you imagine? A girl good at math!" 
> 
> Mike:
> I wouldn't couch any of the bigotry in these books as racial. Based 
> on the Nazi imagery that I thought JKR was paralleling, I would 
call 
> it ethnic. 
> 
> So it was more like, "Your mother was a helluva distance runner. 
> Never would have guessed she was Jewish." And if Jewish people 
> weren't historically known for their distance running... does that 
> make him prejudicial against Jewish people? Yes, but not 
necessarily 
> bigoted. Bigoted connotes dislike or disfavor based on the ethnic 
> condition, imo. I don't read that in Slughorn. (BTW, I have NO IDEA 
> if Jewish people are or aren't good distance runners, it's just an 
> example.)

Magpie:
I don't see how "not good at the thing upon which our entire society 
is based" isn't disfavor. Especially since haven't people actually 
looked at the bad effect this kind of attitude has on students? It'd 
be one thing even if he were the janitor looking around at the 
students and privately thinking "the Muggle-borns must be doing worse 
than the Purebloods" but he's teaching them. Is Draco not supposed to 
be sounding bigoted in his first scene with Harry? 

Of course, Muggle-borns in canon are basically shown to be part of 
the same culture and ethnicity. Muggle-borns have no culture of doing 
magic or not before they come to Hogwarts. Once there we've not seen 
anything to suggest they have their own culture or any magical 
talents or interests that are significantly different as students. It 
would certainly have made sense to have Muggle-borns as a noticible 
group, but since they're not it seems like Slughorn's talking about 
blood here.

 
> > Magpie:
> > Who cares if it's "old-fashioned?" Not that I'm conceding that it 
> > is--I'm not. He's still picking out kids for different treatment 
> > based on their bloodline. 
> 
> Mike:
> I care, and I disagree. I think people should be judged in context. 
> If Slughorn's ideas are misshapen by the predominant opinion of a 
> bygone era that he was brought up to believe, that should be taken 
> into account. That's the way I read the books, that in the past it 
> was commonly thought that pure-bloods would be more *talented* 
> wizards. The real measuring stick is whether Slughorn has changed 
> with the times. I think he has softened his position with regards 
to 
> Muggleborns. He's quite taken with Hermione right off the bat, and 
> only after does he realizes she is the Muggleborn that Harry spoke 
of.

Magpie:
I don't see anything in the actual world-building to say this is a 
generational thing. Asking me to superimpose my own world's history 
on it to excuse him seems a bit sloppy. Gryffindor was pro-Muggleborn 
thousands of years ago. The whole place changes to a society that 
hunts Muggle-borns pretty quickly in DH. We never hear about any sort 
of movement on this issue. We've met other older people who didn't 
all have this problem--not the way we see it being a thing to expect 
in Slytherins. But regardless, however much he's changed (and since 
we didn't know him before I don't know how much he did) I wouldn't 
want him using my 11-year-old Muggle-born to play that out because 
he'd gotten better. 

I think Slughorn can have a problem with his attitude even if he 
doesn't ask every specific student his/her bloodline before he 
compliments them. He looks for students he thinks will reflect well 
on him. There are a number of things that can make him think they 
will. Not all of them are blood related, but some are. 

Mike:
> As for picking out kids based on bloodline, explain Ron. Sluggy's 
> already drafted his younger sister (based on hexing talent not 
> blood). What taint does Ron exhibit that precludes him from getting 
> this supposed "blood" preference?

Magpie:
So in order for Slughorn to possibly be bigoted to you he has to pick 
every Pureblood and have nothing but Purebloods in his club? That's 
not what he does. That's not the way bigotry works in our world 
either. It just seems bizarre to me to either say "He can't be a 
bigot--he didn't invite Ron into his club!" or "He can't be a bigot--
he let Hermione and Lily in!" I don't think bigotry's that simple. 
Though I admit I'm also perhaps primed to see it that way since I've 
been in so many conversations about racism where people have 
expressed frustration at arguments that racism doesn't exist where 
they feel they're on teh receiving end of it.


> > Magpie:
> > I think the whole idea of Slughorn's (and sometimes Phineas') 
> > bigotry being "old-fashioned" comes from the sketchy world-
> > building. Who says it's old-fashioned in canon? Nobody that we 
see.
> 
> Mike:
> I don't concede that Slughorn is bigoted, not in my view of the 
term 
> nor in my impression of Slughorn. If you want to discuss whether 
> Slughorn's view that pure-blood wizards are more talented is old-
> fashioned, that I'll address, and to some degree I already did 
above.
> 
> As to the rest, yes, I'm sure I'm drawing on real world history to 
> think the talented pure-blood motif was handed down. I don't think 
it 
> an untenable position especially if, as you said, JKR was probably 
> counting on us to draw that parallel from RL images.

Magpie:
But apparently not intending us to draw any real life parallels to 
the guy thinking Muggle-borns aren't as magical (being more or less 
magical being the most important thing in this universe) being 
bigotry even though elsewhere it's an insult to suggest Muggle-borns 
are more like Muggles than Witches. So it wouldn't be bigotry to say 
that somebody of a certain race is likely to not do well in school 
because of their race.

 
> > Magpie:
> > Err...and that's good? That Harry first bristled at Slughorn 
> > stating that his mother surprised him by being talented because 
she 
> > was a Muggleborn, and then softened up after the guy praised him 
> > for talent he didn't have, which he chalked up to his blood? 
> 
> Mike:
> Who said it was good? I just said I had a different initial 
> impression than Harry, and that Harry changed his impression.

Magpie:
Did he? I'm not sure that he ever necessarily gave up the idea that 
Slughorn was obnoxious for the thing about Muggle-borns.

Mike:
> BTW, which he chalked up to his *Mother's Muggleborn* blood. At 
what 
> point do we give Slughorn credit for seeing past his prejudices 
> towards Muggleborns to realize that they are just as good? I've 
been 
> given enough examples to see that Slughorn doesn't act on those 
> prejudices, at least not any more. And I call them prejudices, not 
> bigotry.

Magpie:
I think we give him credit when he actually does it and starts 
treating kids in his class as students he's there to help learn--
which doesn't seem to be something he'll be doing. We all know he's 
singled out Lily as one of those exceptional Muggle-borns who rose 
above her natural inadequacies. 

Seeing a "good Muggle-born" is not seeing past your bigotry and 
seeing that they're "just as good." And I think Slughorn acts on his 
prejudices every day. Every time he steps into a class with the 
attitude of "well, the Muggle-borns naturally have less potential" I 
think he has an effect on the students. He can still recognize an 
exceptional Muggle-born when he sees one, but his general attitude 
still seems just as important to me. It doesn't give him a get out of 
bigotry free card any more than Snape's being half-Muggle makes him 
immune to being a bigot.

Maybe Slughorn has changed his attitudes--I've no evidence that he 
has since I didn't know him in the past. He's certainly better than 
Tom Riddle. But if this is the best Slytherin has to offer, I still 
don't see anything admirable here. 

-m