Dumbledore's plan

[Carol]

No: HPFGUIDX 177392

Dana wrote:
> 
> <snip> as long as Voldemort was alive, Harry could go back. 
Voldemort did not drop dead when Neville killed Nagini either. He 
would surely not have died if the event, of Harry's supposed death, 
had taken place after Nagini was taken care off. He still had the 
soul bit residing in his body and without actively killing that part 
of his soul, he would not just have dropped death because Harry did 
> [not]. 
> 
<snip>

Carol responds:

I agree so far. Dumbledore explains in HBP that while destroying the
Horcruxes is essential to make Voldemort mortal, their destruction
will not kill him in and of itself:

"It will take uncommon skill and power to kill a wizard like Voldemort
even without his Horcruxes" (the uncommon power in Harry's case being
love, which evidently compensates for his lack of skill, HBP Am. ed. 509).

Dana:

> To me, it seems that the only reason Voldemort was down on his
knees, after what happened to Harry, was because of the mind link
Harry shared with LV (that was probably broken forcefully) and not
because the soul bit died. The crying creature at Kings Cross was the
soul bit attached to Harry because if it had been LV conscious soul
then he would surely have experienced the events at the same time
Harry did but Voldemort had no clue Harry was not really death or what
would become of him if he died. It would surely had increased his 
fear of death by a tenfold (at least) but as we see in the final 
scene, he surely wasn't worried about it more then he ever was 
before, not even when Harry told him no horcruxes where left. 
>
Carol responds:

Here I disagree. Dead!DD tells Harry quite plainly that the soul bit
in his scar has been utterly destroyed, just like the soul bits in the
diary, ring, locket, cup, and tiara/diadem Horcruxes, and that the
thing under the bench is something else:

""'So the part of his soul that was in me . . . has it gone?'

"'Oh, yes!' said Dumbledore. 'Yes, he destroyed it. Your soul is
whole, and completely your own, Harry.'

"'But then . . .' Harry glanced over his shoulder to where the small,
maimed creature trembled under the chair. 'What is that, Professor?'

"'Something that is beyond either of our help,' said Dumbledore" (DH
Am. ed. 708).

Soul bits don't go to some equivalent of King's Cross when they are
released from the Horcrux that holds them. According to Hermione, our
resident expert on the subject, "a Horcrux is the complete opposite of
a human being. . . . [W]hatever happens to your body, your soul will
survive, untouched. But it's the other way around with a Horcrux. The
fragment inside it depends on its container, its enchanted body. It
can't exist without it" (104).

So the soul in Voldemort's body, mangled and fragmented as it is,
can't be destroyed even when his body dies. It will exist in some
form. The soul bits, in contrast, are utterly destroyed when their
containers are destroyed. Admittedly, Harry's scar is not destroyed,
but the soul bit is gone from it (Harry's soul is completely his own,
and he no longer has the link to Voldemort's mind). It does not appear
that the soul bit flitted outside its container and could not return.
Instead, it seems to have been destroyed by the Dark magic of the AK
just as the diary, ring, cup, and locket were destroyed by Basilisk
venom and the diadem by Fiendfyre.

That the thing under the bench is a representation of Voldie's soul's
future existence is clear from Harry's words, "I've seen what you'll
be otherwise [if you don't show remorse]" (741).

The question of whether Voldie's fragmented soul (not the destroyed
soul bit) is actually present in Harry's out of body experience is
unclear. DD says that it's happening in Harry's mind but is no less
real for that (723).

I can think of two possibilities, first, that Voldie's future state is
part of Harry's vision, real and true (within the context of the book)
but still a vision; second, that Voldie is experiencing the same
vision but is so divorced from his own soul that he doesn't understand
what he experienced. The flayed baby does not participate in the
conversation; it seems to be aware only of its own suffering and
helplessness. If Voldie did pass briefly into that state in his own
out of body experience, he clearly didn't comprehend that it was his
own future existence, escapable only by feeling and expressing
remorse. Perhaps he was only unconscious and experienced nothing but
blackness, or blackness and pain; nonetheless, it's clear from the
context (and the resemblance to Fetal!mort in GoF) that the thing
under the bench is not the destroyed soul bit but the tattered remains
of Voldie's own soul, which perhaps would have been left under the
bench had Harry chosen to "go on," but which returned briefly to
Voldie's body (assuming that it had indeed left) when both of them
regained consciousness.

As to the question of what would have happened if Nagini had been
destroyed before this confrontation, I agree with you that it would
have made no difference. Voldemort would not have been killed because
his AK killed the soul bit rather than rebounding. (The death of the
last Horcrux might well have knocked him unconscious, however.) The
shared drop of blood would still have kept Harry from dying. Harry (or
Snape?) would then have had to find a way to kill the now-mortal
Voldemort using "skill and power." Exactly what DD expected to happen
then is unclear, since he expected Snape to have the wand. Maybe he
expected Snape to step in and kill LV. Clearly, "poor Severus" wasn't
supposed to die, but "that bit" didn't work out (721).

Luckily for Harry, the flaw in Dumbledore's plan (Draco disarming DD
before Snape killed him), combined with the consultation with DD in
King's Cross, gave Harry the "skill and power" he needed, a
psychological understanding of LV and the mastery of the Elder Wand.
Or that's how I see it.

Carol, admitting that we don't know what LV experienced while he was
unconscious, but sure that the flayed child is not the soul bit and
that Nagini's continued existence made no difference to DD's plan