The Sword of Gryffindor

[Mike]

No: HPFGUIDX 182606

Mike:
Put on your safety glasses as I throw in my two knuts.

I think it was the Hat that brings the Sword, through it's own 
magical ability. The Sword is only summoned magically twice and both 
times it comes from the Hat. It may need to be "taken under 
conditions of need and valor" in order to function properly, but 
there is no indication that those same conditions will summon the 
Sword to a true Gryffindor. On the contrary, Snape has to become the 
modus of transport to get the Sword to Harry in the Forest of Dean.

The Sorting Hat is a magical object and it seems a quite powerful one 
too. According to canon, it has brains of the four founders in it, 
every year it composes a song that addresses the current climate of 
the WW and then proceeds to magically and unerringly sort all 
incoming Hogwarts students. We are not given the method, but this 
seems to be a very powerfully magical ability. When I combine the 
traits and abilities with which the Hat is imbued with the fact that 
the Sword only appears magically from within it, I don't see why I 
shouldn't believe that it was the Hat that caused the Sword to 
appear. Not Dumbledore, not Godric, the Hat and it's own magic.



> Carol responds:
> 
> <snip>
> every evidence of DD's: Fawkes is his Phoenix and the Sorting Hat
> is kept in his office, as is the Sword of Gryffindor afterwards
> (I don't know about before because Harry never sees DD's office
> until after he kills the Basilisk).

Mike:
Actually Harry does visit Dumbledore's office before he ventures into 
the CoS. He was sent to DD's office by McGonnigall after the Justin 
and NHN petrifications. This is where he first meets Fawkes and he 
puts the Sorting Hat on and gets a re-visitation of his sorting.

I like Steve's postulation that the Sword of Gryffindor was lost to 
time before it gets summoned to Harry in the Chamber. Had it been in 
DD's office before this, I feel certain that Harry would have noticed 
it, after all it sits on the shelf next to the hat from CoS on 
afterward. It's not something that would be easily overlooked.


> Carol:
> Diary!Tom talks about the protections that DD has sent his
> defender (a songbird and an old hat), and his explanation is
> not questioned or corrected afterwards,

Mike:
Harry was the only one that heard those words and he has no 
motivation or reason to recall them to Dumbledore afterwards for 
possible correction. Conversely, Dumbledore unbidden thanks Harry for 
showing him great loyalty, as that's the only thing that would have 
summoned Fawkes. There is no place in this conversation for Harry to 
question Tom's words or for Dumbledore to correct them. And, Harry's 
loyalty to DD caling forth Fawkes was a form of DD providing Fawkes 
to Harry. 

But not so the Hat. Whether Fawkes, undoubtedly a very intelligent 
and magical animal, knows the Hat is also magically helpful, I can 
only speculate. It does seem that magical objects and beings in the 
Potterverse recognize other magical things.



> Carol:
> Either DD set up those protections or he knew that they would 
> come into play. And he made sure that Harry heard his words
> before he left Hogwarts.

Mike:
I'll grant that DD could have been the one to instruct Fawkes to 
bring the Hat to a Gryffindor in need. DD could very well have been 
aware of the Hat's additional abilities, if anyone was. But I still 
go along with Geoff's version, the Hat summoned the Sword, DD didn't 
magically hide the Sword in the Hat.

My reading hinges on one simple fact, DD was not available and for 
sure didn't have access to the Sword in DH. Yet the Hat summoned the 
Sword for another Gryffindor in need and without any reasonable way 
for DD to have caused it. The only other option is that the Sword 
itself is the actor. But then why would we need the Hat? And why 
would Snape need to bring the Sword to Harry via his doe Patronus?


 

> Carol again:
> 
> <snip>
> that I'm not sure that help is always given at Hogwarts to those
> who ask for it. Help *is* however, given to Harry, and it seems
> from these words and other evidence that I've cited that the help
> comes from Dumbledore, not the Sorting Hat

Mike:
But help comes to Neville, and it comes from the Hat, not Dumbledore. 
Dumbledore is dead, speaking through his portrait. My reading does 
not include Dumbledore being able to do any magic in the physical 
world during DH. So how does he get the Sword to Neville?

If, however, it is the Hat that summons the Sword. we need no more 
explanation.




> > Geoff:
> > I reiterate what I suggested previously. What made him think that
> > Harry would go looking for the Chamber - or if he did that he
> > would succeed where others hadn't over the centuries?
> 
> Carol responds:
> <snip> 
> And once he learns that Harry, like Voldemort is a Parselmouth and
> can therefore find and open the Chamber, as DD himself cannot, and
> Harry has been falsely accused of being the Heir of Slytherin and
> opening the CoS, and especially after Hermione is Petrified, it's
> almost a foregone conclusion that he (and Ron) will attempt it.

Mike:
I agree with Carol here. Not only was Dumbledore confident that Harry 
would go searching for the entrance to the CoS, Manipulative!DD 
probably very much wants Harry to get in there. He is providing clues 
and hints aplenty to aid Harry in his quest should he succeed in 
finding and entering the Chamber. And what were the chances that DD 
forgot that Harry was in the hospital wing when he and McG carry the 
petrified Colin in?


 
> Carol responds:
> <snip>
>  and if he doesn't expect Harry, as a Parselmouth, to succeed 
> where he has failed.

Mike:
A quick point here. I'm not sure that DD can't speak Parseltongue. He 
sure seems to understand it when the Gaunts speak it. And since Ron 
was able to mimic Harry to get the CoS open, I find it hard to 
conceive of it thwarting Dumbledore. Therefore, I don't think DD even 
tried to get into the CoS, both for purpose of JKR's plot and because 
he wouldn't have a reason to tempt fate and do battle with a Basilisk 
when he was sure that it would never be called forth again. 

I'm sure he didn't expect another Parselmouth to come to Hogwarts, 
didn't expect Tom to make the Diary and imbed it with a piece of his 
soul, and when it was actually re-opened possibly viewed it as 
another training ground for Harry rather than something to just stop 
up himself.



> > Geoff: 
> > However, as I said in the beginning, my main point was that 
> > Dumbledore did not necessarily foresee how events would unfold. 
> 
> Carol:
> I've already argued that his words in Hagrid's hut indicate
> otherwise. I think that he had faith in Harry, but only if Harry
> had exactly the sort of help he would need to fight Slytherin's
> monster.

Mike:
I'm of two minds on this question. (I know, blimey what a waste of 
parchment. <g>) On the one hand, I can't conceive of DD not sussing 
out the monster being a Basilisk. OTOH, would DD chance his champion 
being killed this early on in the battle against Voldemort? 


> Carol:
> The only question in my mind is whether he also thought that
> Harry would encounter the Heir of Slytherin (Tom Riddle or
> Voldemort) in some form and, if so, how he thought that Fawkes
> and the Sword of Gryffindor would help him. <snip>

Mike:
As you have pointed out, DD is aware that Voldemort is still around
in his vapor form and in Albania. I don't think DD is aware of the 
Diary nor that it is a Horcrux until after the encounter. I think DD 
already suspects Tom has made Horcrux(es) and may already suspect 
that Harry has a piece of Voldemort's soul in him. His comments in 
the wrap-up debrief suggested this to many of us.

Like you, I can't figure how DD would expect Harry to encounter some 
form of Tom/LV. But if I wanted to think the worst of DD, I would say 
that he wanted Harry to get into this scrap and either prove himself 
worthy of further training or die trying. And if DD suspected 
Harry!Crux, he would also know that Basilisk venom would destroy a 
Horcrux. One down, some unknown number to go.

I can't see even the most manipulative version of Dumbledore being 
that cold. Others mileage may vary. 

Mike, wondering just how much of a bastard was this Dumbledore guy