Manipulation in Potterverse and in general /Tigana spoilers

[jkoney65]

No: HPFGUIDX 185140

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" 
<dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > Pippin:
> > Thanks for defining this issue so plainly. People do seem to be 
> using
> > the word manipulation to mean any kind of indirect or emotional
> > persuasion, whereas I believe it applies only when the persuader 
is
> > being deceptive about his goal. 
> <SNIP>
> > Harry was manipulated in that he presumed he was being groomed to 
> face
> > Voldemort because he had a right to do so.  He did not know it was
> > because he was already in mortal peril from the soul bit. But I 
> don't
> > think he was manipulated to love the wizarding world, or his 
friends
> > or Hogwarts, or to be brave enough to die for them. 
>  
> Alla:
> Yes, we are definitely disagreeing on what the manipulation is 
then. 
> While Wiki can be very crappy for in-depth research IMO, I often 
find 
> to be very useful for initial definition. And their definition of 
> social manipulation is pretty much what I am using.
> "A means of gaining control or social influence over others by 
> methods which might be considered unfair. Social advantage may be 
> sought through either manipulative or persuasive rhetorical 
> arguments. "
> When I decide whether character or person is being manipulated, I 
do 
> not care if manipulator wants the person to do what that person in 
> essence would have done himself. I care about two things – whether 
> manipulator is in **control** of another person and whether the 
> methods manipulator uses to make another person do staff is fair or 
> not.

>snip>
 Anyways back to Potterverse, as I said I do think that Harry chose 
to 
> follow Dumbledore's plan sacrificing him per se. I do think that 
was 
> in him and that is partially why he was sorted in Gryffindor. 
> However, I do think Harry was manipulated into doing so many things 
> that he should not have been. Granted, we would have no stories 
> without it, but again I think those are just two different angles 
to 
> look at the story – external and internal. Without what I consider 
to 
> be Dumbledore's manipulation of Harry going after Stone, we would 
> have no story. However if the characters were real people, I think 
> Dumbledore would have deserved to be fired **on the spot**, period 
> after the first book. Without Occlumency lessons we would have no 
> OOP, but I have no doubt that Dumbledore manipulated Snape into 
> giving them. What I am trying to say is that even though I know 
that 
> Harry chose on his own, I think he was manipulated that he was put 
in 
> the circumstances of having to choose if that makes sense.
> And of course Harry was not manipulated into loving Hogwarts and 
his 
> friends that I agree with.
> 
> 
> JMO,
> 
> Alla
>
jkoney
In World War I the average life expectancy of a combat pilot started 
at 5 weeks, by April 1917 it was 17.5 minutes (from Wiki). Were all 
of those people being manipulated?  I don't think so. They were 
fighting for a cause, their life/way of life. That is the same thing 
Harry, Lupin, Sirius, etc. were fighting for. I don't believe it is 
manipulation to have sent them out to fight. Harry got the "suicide" 
mission. I don't think he went well I've been manipulated so far, 
might as well go along. I think he realized that he a job to do in 
this war. Go out and face Voldemort and break his power.

JMO
jkoney