Manipulation in Potterverse and in general /Tigana spoilers

[pippin_999]

No: HPFGUIDX 185143

  
> Alla:
> Yes, we are definitely disagreeing on what the manipulation is then. 

> While Wiki can be very crappy for in-depth research IMO, I often
find to be very useful for initial definition. And their definition of 
> social manipulation is pretty much what I am using.
> "A means of gaining control or social influence over others by 
> methods which might be considered unfair. Social advantage may be 
> sought through either manipulative or persuasive rhetorical 
> arguments. "

Pippin:
My definition comes from marriage and family counseling. Persuasive
argument can be unfair if you are better at persuasive argument than
your opponent, so unfairness is  a different  issue in a relationship
than being manipulative. 

But we were discussing all this as a motive for Dumbledore to kill
Sirius. 

Even if Dumbledore did set up the first year situation as completely
as Dicentra thinks, he did it planning that Harry would test his
strength, learn to survive and so on, or so he would claim.  Why would
Sirius object to that? 

He wouldn't think it unfair that Harry should learn to survive, no
matter how much hardship it placed on him. Even with Umbridge in
charge, he let Harry stay at Hogwarts, so I can't imagine he'd object
to Dumbledore, even at his hypothetical worst. It is certainly unfair
that  Harry had to work harder than other people to stay alive, but
that was Voldemort's doing, not Dumbledore's. 

Or are you saying that it was Dumbledore's job to make sure that Harry
had an easy life? That's the Dursleys' style of parenting, and I think
we can agree that JKR doesn't think much of it. Anway, Sirius did not
seem much concerned with Harry's comfort.

 I think I can show without relying on Dumbledore's words that he
believed, or hoped,  that if he did all he could to teach Harry to
survive, the time would come when it might be possible. 

The key is the gleam of triumph. Dumbledore didn't just look surprised
or relieved or elated when  he realized that Harry would have a chance
to live -- he looked victorious. You don't look like you've won
something if you haven't been fighting for it.

Pippin