Manipulation in Potterverse and in general /Tigana spoilers

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 185145

> Pippin:
<SNIP>
> But we were discussing all this as a motive for Dumbledore to kill
> Sirius. 

Alla:

Sure, but we were also discussing Dumbledore as manipulator in 
general, at least it was my impression.

Pippin: 
> Even if Dumbledore did set up the first year situation as completely
> as Dicentra thinks, he did it planning that Harry would test his
> strength, learn to survive and so on, or so he would claim.  Why 
would
> Sirius object to that? 

Alla:

Hmmm, if it was the game, which would end with them solving the last 
puzzle, I do not think he would. However, there was Voldemort there 
behind the door and if one takes a position that Dumbledore knew or 
highly suspected there was Voldemort there, well, I think it is just 
disgusting that Dumbledore left three eleven year olds to go and face 
him.

And we do have Harry's words that Dumbledore let him face Voldemort 
because Harry has a right, do we not?

I do not have a book in front of me, but I believe that **let him 
face** is there, to me it implies very strongly that Dumbledore knew 
very well what was happening. I always thought that those words of 
Harry really belong to JKR. I mean of course all characters' words 
belong to her, but to me it felt wierd that eleven year old Harry 
would have time to reflect about everybody's behavior including 
Dumbledore and decide that oh yeah, Dumbledore let me do it because 
he felt I have a right.

I think it is there for the reader's benefit, to make sure we know 
what was really going on. IMO of course.

Pippin:
<SNIP>
> Or are you saying that it was Dumbledore's job to make sure that 
Harry
> had an easy life? That's the Dursleys' style of parenting, and I 
think
> we can agree that JKR doesn't think much of it. Anway, Sirius did 
not
> seem much concerned with Harry's comfort.

Alla:

Hm, depends on what you mean by *easy life*. 

I would think that it is Dumbledore's job to care for Harry, 
absolutely since he so actively involved himself in Harry's wellfare, 
without being asked to. So I would say that it is his job to make 
sure that he was not being abused (or neglected, or use whatever 
word). I would say that it is certainly NOT his job to turn living 
breathing human being into the weapon in the war.

And Sirius did not seem much concerned with Harry's comfort? I would 
say also depends on what you mean by comfort. Sirius offers Harry to 
live with him instead of his relatives right away, when he is free. 
So I would say he is very much concerned with Harry's comfort. I do 
not believe Sirius in OOP was in the position to care for Harry much, 
being ill himself IMO. But Sirius in GoF rushes to be closer to Harry 
and wants to know about every problem, every time his scar hurts, 
etc. That counts to me as concern.



Pippin:
>  I think I can show without relying on Dumbledore's words that he
> believed, or hoped,  that if he did all he could to teach Harry to
> survive, the time would come when it might be possible. 
> 
> The key is the gleam of triumph. Dumbledore didn't just look 
surprised
> or relieved or elated when  he realized that Harry would have a 
chance
> to live -- he looked victorious. You don't look like you've won
> something if you haven't been fighting for it.

Alla:

Actually I do not believe you saw me disputing that Dumbledore may 
have a wish for Harry to survive. However, I think that desire came 
very very very late in the game AND I do not think he could knew for 
sure. And he still proceeded with his plans.

So I take it to mean, oh well, if he survives, lovely, if not, who 
cares.

Yes, I know one live versus many lives, however I do not have to like 
it one bit and Israeli army comes to mind again, where every life 
counts and every wounded soldier, soldier who is captured, attempt to 
save them is made. As far as I read anyways. I did not serve in that 
army or any army.

JMO,

Alla