Lupin's behavior (Was: CHAPDISC: DH11, The Bribe)

[Zara]

No: HPFGUIDX 180596


> > Alla:
> > I mean, Aberworth had any sort of business telling Harry to leave 
> > this all and not do what Dumbledore told him?
> 
> a_svirn:
> Did Aberforth call Harry names? 

zgirnius:
Did Harry start kicking furniture around in Aberforth's house? 

> a_svirn:
> He had no right to be insulting, though. I cringed when he started 
> hurling insults at Lupin. Of course, Lupin had forgiven even worse 
> things to his precious friends, so Harry didn't really risk their 
> friendship. 

zgirnius:
Your mileage obviously varies, but Lupin stepped over the line for me 
when he dragged James into the conversation, and Harry's initial 
response to this, while harsh, was courteous in form and tone. 

> > Alla:
> > My answer is Harry had a right to speak up since he is the party 
to 
> > whom Lupin offered help, but besides that he is being voice of a 
> > reader, or at least some readers, just as Aberworth voiced what 
> some 
> > readers had against Dumbledore, IMO.
 
> a_svirn:
> I don't understand it. How can a character be a voice of readers?! 

zgirnius:
By saying what we would like to say to the character ourselves? 
Though, if the author imagined her readers would want a certain thing 
to be said, and wrote the scene to produce this effect, it might be 
more accurate to suggest it was the voice of the author. 

> > Alla:
> I 
> > mean if I believe that he had a right to say the essense of what 
he 
> > said, does it make that much of a difference if he said the 
hurtful 
> > things nicely or rudely? Those things ARE still hurtful to Remus 
> but 
> > they are also truth in my view.

a_svirn:
> And you cannot call someone a coward – nicely.

zgirnius:
I beg to differ. Lupin was acting out of fear, and this can be said 
nicely (or, at any rate, without resorting to insults). He's so 
afraid something is going to go wrong with the pregnancy, or the 
relationship, or Tonks, that he is not even giving it a chance, and 
is running away from it instead. When what he should do, is grab this 
new chance of happiness life has unexpectedly blessed him with, and 
hold on to it with both hands. 

(I recognize some readers think Lupin does not love Tonks and is not 
interested in her child. I take his later behavior as proof this is 
not the case; however, if it were true, I would have even less 
trouble with any insults Harry may have heaved in his direction.)

a_svirn: 
> Besides, Harry did not say, that Lupin had to talk it over with 
Tonks 
> first.

zgirnius:
This does not bother me, because it seemed clear that Lupin had *not* 
talked it over with Tonks. If his fears about the baby and the 
relationship had nothing to do with his decision, and he was going 
for the greater good of the wizard world, I presume he would have 
said so. You know, follow up "You don't understand" with "Tonks is in 
the Order too. She agrees you need my help, she'd like to help 
herself but we cannot risk the baby, so she is going to stay with her 
mother," instead of launching into an explanation of why marrying her 
was a huge mistake.

The way real people talk in conversations, in my experience, we 
cannot conclude Harry would still read Lupin the same lecture if 
Lupin was there with Tonks' blessing. 

It's just clear to Harry at the moment that Lupin neither has it, nor 
cares, so Harry is responding to the situation with which he is 
actually presented, and any absolute-sounding statements he makes may 
well be meant only in that specific context.

Also, I think it likely Harry would have rejected Lupin's help 
anyway, since he was not going to tell him the secret of the 
Horcruxes, and he was not sure how that could be kept from Remus, if 
he came along. So telling Lupin to go and get permission, would be 
creating a false impression that this would win him inclusion in the 
mission.

Finally, the relationship and Tonks' feelings is not at all what 
Harry is upset about, as I see this scene. If Lupin had had that 
discussion with Tonks, and she had blessed the idea by affirming she 
can take care of her self and her mom can help her through the 
pregnancy, this would show that Lupin had given real thought to the 
safety of his child. That he had obviously not, is what made his 
comment about James rankle. It seems to Harry that Lupin has not made 
keeping his own child safe a priority; it is something he 
dismissively leaves to his wife and her parents without even 
consulting them, as though it were not his problem.