Muggles v wizards redux

[sistermagpie]

No: HPFGUIDX 183250

> Magpie:
> I know I would be treated badly simply because I cannot do magic.
> That's explicit in the books. At best I'd be thought of 
> condescendingly
> and people would disapprove if someone tormented me too much when 
they
> didn't think I'd deserved it, but that's about it.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> See, I do not believe that it is explicit in the books. I mean, 
sure 
> condescention towards muggles as a group IMO is explicit, but 
hurting 
> muggles, tormenting them **just because they cannot do magic**, I 
do 
> not think so.

Magpie:
But I didn't say that I'd necessarily run into people who would 
torment me to the level of DEs. I said that I'd be treated badly 
because of what I was--I consider condescension to be treating badly. 
It doesn't have to be me being hurt physically or seriously zapped 
with magic. Although no Wizards have a problem with zapping them with 
magic that we see, if it's convenient for them.

Alla:
 It is of course valid interpretation that muggles are 
> mistreated because they are muggles only, but I do not think that 
it 
> is true for good guys.

Magpie:
As I said, I don't think it has to be being tormented. Also, if 
you're going to assume that as long as the Muggle's done anything to 
bring displeasure to or inconvenience a Wizard, that's a pretty big 
blank check for them to do whatever they want. Which is exactly their 
attitude. A good Wizard is somebody who doesn't seek out faceless 
Muggles to torment. They can be condescending, manipulate them, have 
no respect for them, make decisions for them and generally treat them 
as inferior. Sure they might have some actual reason for teasing and 
tormenting them if they're good guys--the person might have given 
them cheek or been a bad guy or just annoyed them in some way. But 
the reason they can respond the way they do, by completely 
humiliating the person and making them completely powerless--*is* 
because they're Muggles.

Alla:
> cannot do magic. I may get Arthur's attitude, sure, which I may 
want 
> to slap him and explain a few things, but beyond that? Unless I 
> decide to raise and actively mistreat a wizard child I do not think 
> that wizards will want to hurt me. My opinion of course.

Magpie:
I wouldn't be satisfied with that attitude, that as long as I behaved 
as a good little Muggle and never did anything to deserve punishment 
from a Wizard (and it would be the Wizard decided when I deserved it) 
I'd be happy. First, because I wouldn't just assume I deserved 
whatever abuse I got. And second because I could be the best Muggle 
in the world and still wouldn't be treated with respect. All I would 
have to do is get in the way. My own child might be the one doing it. 

In real life the groups in power have often claimed that people not 
in power are just fine as long as they're good, but because they have 
no power it doesn't usually work out that way.

Alla:> 
> And actually I think that maybe some improvements in the 
> condescention area are to follow. After all Ron passes a driving 
> test, so maybe they will learn some muggle ways and figure that 
> muggles are not as stupid as wizards think.

Magpie:
Well, Ron (a good guy) doesn't "pass" so much as Confund the driving 
instructor. Because Muggles actually are just that stupid--once you 
Confund them! I wouldn't expect any better treatment.


> Magpie:
>  Even Muggles who as
> far as we know are perfectly nice people get treated badly, and 
> they're
> spoken of dismissively as a group. Even if it's Muggles you'd think
> they'd respect and like they can't respect them as much as Wizards.
> 
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Who are those perfectly nice people who get treated badly? Again I 
am 
> not talking about DE mistreating muggles, I want to know which 
> perfectly nice people are being tormented by good guys? And again, 
I 
> happily concede that good guys are condescending and patronizing 
> towards muggles as a group, I just think that this is not enough in 
> my book to condemn them for it. This is something I hope that they 
> will learn to not do eventually.

Magpie:
The people at the QWC who get memory charmed, some to the point of 
total confusion, the Grangers and the parents of every other 
Muggleborn who aren't treated with the same respect as Wizard 
parents, the many random people who are just sources of amusements 
for Wizards, every Muggle who's treated as an idiot, the Muggles who 
are randomly hexed to make them more docile to whatever the Wizard 
wants. 

-m