Did Harry Notice?

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 182861

---  "Mike" <mcrudele78 at ...> wrote:
>
> "... "
> "He was over the threshold as James came sprinting into the
> hall. It was easy, too easy, he had not even picked up his 
> wand...."
> ....
> ....
> ....
> "She had no wand upon her either.... How stupid they were, 
> ..., thinking ..., that weapons could be discarded even for 
> moments...."
> <DH pp. 343-4, US Ed.>
> 
> So maybe JKR wanted to make a point; James and Lily were 
> *too* trusting of friendship, loyalty, courage, .... Was this
> a logical way to make that point? IMO, no. 
> 
> I can't see James, who moments before was entertaining Harry
> with his wand and had just dropped it on the sofa he was 
> sitting on, respond to the door bursting open without 
> snatching up his wand. ...
> 
> After the things Voldemort had told Harry about his dad in 
> PS/SS and in the graveyard of GoF, ... that James had put up 
> a *good* fight, o... A kind of thoughtless bravery. But "put 
> up a courageous fight"? How? With what?
> 
>
> But that wasn't my question, was it? Did Harry notice? ...
>

bboyminn:

First you are making a mistake; as I have pointed out before.
You are assuming the people, even in fiction, and most
significantly Voldemort, are speaking in absolute truths;
they are not.

When Voldemort is speaking to Harry, he is trying to manipulate
Harry. He is telling Harry things that he thinks will both
strengthen and weaken Harry. In a sense, he is trying to
psychologically disarm Harry. It is pure manipulation; not
truth. Though I think it is based on a grain of truth.

And YES, I do think Harry noticed, but I don't think the
details mattered to Harry. He still saw his father as brave
and heroic, even if he was foolish to not snatch up his 
wand as he ran to the door. 

We can't really count on cool clear logic in a moment of
panic. Yes, I certainly agree that it was odd that James
who seconds before had his wand, now doesn't have it. But
he may have gotten up from the chair and handed Harry to 
Lily. He may have stepped away from his wand for a moment,
and in the panic of being under attack, just rushed to the
door rather than wasting time to go back for his wand.

Either way seems like death to me, but at least going for
the wand opened the door for a chance at staying alive or
defending his family. So, certainly it was a flawed choice.
But in the calm after the storm, it is a lot easier to make
the decisions in hindsight. 

So, again, to your central question, yes, I do think Harry
noticed and is fully aware of the circumstances and the poor
choices that were made in that moment. 

But I can't help but wonder if JKR's point wasn't that their
being disarmed, yet still standing to fight, didn't somehow
enhance the magic that saved Harry.
 
> Mike:
> Two more things from this chapter and LV reminiscing. I noticed
> that Lily starts crying "Not Harry" before Voldemort tells her 
> to stand aside. This seems to indicate that she was aware that 
> Voldemort was after Harry. So Dumbledore must have told them at
> least that. 
> 

bboyminn:

I've always contended that Dumbledore told lots of people about
the prophecy, but that is a far cry from actually telling them
the prophecy. I think he summarized it in a way that he felt
was adequate to the listener's needs in the moment. So, in a
sense he selectively summaried and generalized the prophecy
without revealing exactly what it said.

I think he probably explained to James and Lily that he had
reliable information that Voldemort felt their son was a 
threat to him. He may have even mentioned a prophecy that 
Voldemort was setting great store in. So, Harry was in 
danger and they had to go into hiding. 

Dumbledore doesn't have to tell them that he heard the prophecy
or who he heard it from or under what circumstance or who had
revealed the prophecy to Voldemort. Only that Voldemort was 
aware that a prophecy had been made indicating that Harry would
be a great threat to him in the future. 

There is a very solid concept amoung military leaders that is
'need to know'. Each person is told just what they need to know
to do their job and no more. That is very common, and a 
practice the Dumbledore certainly engaged in. Those who feel
that Dumbledore should have told everybody everything are being
completely unrealistic and exceptionally naive.

> Mike:
>
> The second thing is a line after the GH reminiscing is done, 
> but while Harry is still in Voldemort's mind:
> 
> "The snake rustled on the filthy, cluttered floor, and he had 
> killed the boy, and yet he *was* the boy...."  <DH p.345, US>
> 
> I'm confused by this line. 

bboyminn:

I never really noticed this before, and now that you brought it
up, it is confusing. First, in this instance Harry is not 
seeing through Voldemort's eyes, he is seeing and comprehending
through Voldemort's mind. His thoughts are Voldemort's thoughts.

Voldemort is remembering the incident at Godrics Hollow. At the
end of the Godrics Hollow event, after he has thrown the curse
that was his downfall, Voldemort is thinking that he need to
hide, that he needs to be 'far away...far away....'. Then we
hear Harry moan 'No'. Then this line occurs -

"[italics]The snake rustled on the filthy, cluttered floor, and
he had killed the boy, and yet he[/italics] was[italics] the 
boy...[/italics]"

Harry moans again "No...".

Then we are back in the moment at Bathilda's house but still in
Voldemort's mind. Voldemort looks down and sees something
incredible.

Harry moans again "No...". Someone calls out to Harry "Harry,
it's all right, you're alright!"

Voldemort stoops down and picks up the picture of young
Grindelwald that Harry dropped at Bathilda's house.

Harry says "No...I dropped it...I dropped it..."

Then Harry's mind returns to the tent with Hermione.

The reference in question, to the snake and the boy, seems to
be the transition between the event at Godrics Hollow and the
events at Bathilda's house. Since Voldemort is aware of the
snake on the floor amid the clutter, he is in a sense at 
Bathilda's, but I think in the boy part Voldemort's mind is
both at Bathilda's and back at Godrics Hollow.  

I honestly can't say, I think it is Voldemort realizing sub-
consciously that he had tried to kill Harry and instead a
bit of his own 'self' had been transferred to Harry -- I
killed the boy, I am the boy. 

On a vague subconscious level Voldemort realizes this but 
consciously he is as confused by it as we are. I think it is
JKR attempting to foreshadow our later learning that a piece
of Voldemort's soul is in Harry.

This is sort of an after-realization on Voldemort's part but
not something he understands, not something that makes sense
to him.

Hey...it's just a thought.

Steve/bboyminn