Snape and moral courage WAS: Re: The Houses, Finally

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 184691

> Alla:
> 
> Absolutely, I totally accept as valid argument that we can call Snape 
> protector of other people through Harry's death. I just do not call 
> him **Harry's protector**.

Montavilla47:
Perhaps not after the discussion with Dumbledore, but up until
that point, he was Harry's protector.  I'm not sure why you are 
basing everything on the last year and a half of Snape's life
when it's very clear that for the five and a half years previously,
he had been very much Harry's protector.



> Leah:
> > He may conclude that he would not be protecting Harry to let him 
> > live on as a horcrux in a world where Voldemort rules. As I have 
> > said in another post, what shows more moral courage, to say, "I am 
> > so obsessively in love with Lily that I will continue my narrow 
> > interpretation of the word I gave to Dumbledore, I will continue to 
> > keep her son alive whatever the cost", or, "I will do what I am 
> > asked in the hope that the world will be saved from a great evil"?
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Yes, I understand all that, but that to me means that Snape cannot be 
> called Harry's protector, but faithful follower of Dumbledore's plans 
> to do to the boy whatever he decides and it also means to me that 
> Snape really does not give a d*mn whether he is dead or alive, Harry 
> I mean.

Montavilla47:
I think you're interpreting against the text here.  There's no reason
for Snape to object to Dumbledore raising Harry as a pig to the 
slaughter if he doesn't give a damn whether Harry lives or not.
He obviously cares, even if, as the text does suggest, he cares
only because of his love for Lily and not for any feelings towards
Harry himself.

Honestly, I see that moment as deliberately ambiguous.  You can
read it as Snape affirming that everything is for Lily, Lily, Lily.  Or
you can read it as Snape protesting too much.  But even if he 
cares only for Lily's sake, it's obvious that he cares quite deeply.

Alla:
> He thought they were keeping him alive, as in his boss' plan was to 
> keep him alive, now he is surprised that plan is different and now 
> they proceed that road.

Montavilla47:
This part, I do agree with.  Just to let you know.  It's odd that 
if Snape's entire reason for living is (as it seems to be) to keep
Lily's boy alive, that he agrees to this cockamamie plan of 
Dumbledore's to kill Harry off.  

Which is why we have to come up with these different 
interpretations.  There's no clear motivation for Snape to
act as he does.  

So, here's another crazy theory to throw into the mix:

When Snape first turns away from Voldemort, it's all
because of his fixation on Lily.  Dumbledore understands
this, but accepts Snape's conversion, even if it's tainted by
a selfish obsession.  Whatever.

But he then tries to subtly nudge that narrow love for 
*one* person into a more general love of mankind.  Or wizardkind.

So, he puts Snape in charge of the Slytherin House and allows 
Snape to favor his own little snakes.  Because, even if it isn't
fair, it's a demonstration of a widening circle of concern for
Snape.

As Harry arrives, Snape is forced to exhibit concern for at least
the physical well-being of someone outside that circle.  And,
although perhaps he continues to favor his own House, that
trickle of concern grows so that, by PoA, we find him taking
care to put even an enemy onto a stretcher.

Perhaps that conversation between Dumbledore and Snape
at the Yule Ball surprised Dumbledore into realizing that
Snape had become more attached to the school than he
realized.  A Snape who didn't care about his students might
well have fled, like Karkaroff.

And perhaps that prompts Dumbledore to realize how
valuable a tool Snape is--not just because he can spy
on Voldemort, but because he can protect the school
in the event that Dumbledore cannot.

So, instead of Snape being the same at the beginning
of the series and at the end in his views about life,
the universe, and everything, there is an evolution that
takes place over several years.  One that is almost 
invisible to the reader because we're looking at the
world through the eyes of a young boy, who naturally
wouldn't expect adults to grow or change.

Alla:
> Believe it or not, I was actually  very pleasantly surprised when 
> Snape expressed his disagreement with Dumbledore but now I believe 
> that it was not disagreement at all. After all, if Dumbledore says 
> Harry needs to die for the greater good or whatever reason Snape does 
> his best to follow the plan.

Montavilla47:
If Snape wasn't expressing disagreement at that point, what do you
think he was expressing?

Alla:
> On my good days I do think that Dumbledore thought that there may be 
> a hope for Harry's survival, but I absolutely do not see that Snape 
> could have somehow learned about it.
> 
> Therefore I conclude that besides treating Harry unfairly all his 
> life, Snape did not care whether he is dead or alive had it been for 
> Dumbledore.

Montavilla47:
On my good days, I think that perhaps Snape suspected there 
was a chance.  But I agree that there isn't any textual evidence 
for that inference.

But I don't see that it follows that, because Snape went along
with Dumbledore's plan, he didn't care.  Dumbledore *loved*
Harry, but he was the one who came up with the plan!  Had
Voldemort not made the mistake of using Harry's blood for his
rebirthing ritual, Dumbledore would still have had Harry
sacrifice himself.

Alla:
> The funny thing is that for some time after DH I actually thought 
> that Snape indeed did not want Harry dead. This debate helped me 
> realize that he did not care about that part either and if Lily's son 
> dropped dead, he would be quite fine with that whether for the 
> greater good or not IMO. I certainly did not see him fighting with 
> Dumbledore and saying oh no you need to come up with another plan.

Montavilla47:
Neither did Harry, and he certainly cared whether he lived or died!

We readers may find Dumbledore's plans pretty silly, but almost all
the characters in the series regard his plans as the best.  The only 
person who rejected one of Dumbledore's plans was James, who
insisted on using Sirius as his secret-keeper when Dumbledore
offered to be it.  As it turned out, that was a pretty bad decision for
James, who ended up dead.