Snape as Harry's protector or not WAS Snape and moral courage LONG

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 184692


> > Alla:
> > 
> > Absolutely, I totally accept as valid argument that we can call 
Snape 
> > protector of other people through Harry's death. I just do not 
call 
> > him **Harry's protector**.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> Perhaps not after the discussion with Dumbledore, but up until
> that point, he was Harry's protector.  I'm not sure why you are 
> basing everything on the last year and a half of Snape's life
> when it's very clear that for the five and a half years previously,
> he had been very much Harry's protector.


Alla:

Ah, well you are right of course. Remember that what I was originally 
responding to was the argument that Snape kept his promise to protect 
Harry. I stand by my response that he did not keep that promise IMO.

But I think that I should be forgiven for getting carried away and 
writing that I do not call him  protector of Harry's  *life* in 
general instead of concentrating on saying that I do not believe that 
he was Harry's protector at the end.

So yeah, agreed as to that.

 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Yes, I understand all that, but that to me means that Snape 
cannot be 
> > called Harry's protector, but faithful follower of Dumbledore's 
plans 
> > to do to the boy whatever he decides and it also means to me that 
> > Snape really does not give a d*mn whether he is dead or alive, 
Harry 
> > I mean.
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I think you're interpreting against the text here.  There's no 
reason
> for Snape to object to Dumbledore raising Harry as a pig to the 
> slaughter if he doesn't give a damn whether Harry lives or not.
> He obviously cares, even if, as the text does suggest, he cares
> only because of his love for Lily and not for any feelings towards
> Harry himself.
> 
> Honestly, I see that moment as deliberately ambiguous.  You can
> read it as Snape affirming that everything is for Lily, Lily, 
Lily.  Or
> you can read it as Snape protesting too much.  But even if he 
> cares only for Lily's sake, it's obvious that he cares quite deeply.

Alla:

Actually that was my feeling all along and it is not anymore. And 
well, if you feel that my interpretation is against the text, we have 
to agree to disagree here. So my interpretation all along was that 
yes, Snape cared and yes of course I interpreted that he cared for 
the sake of Lily, I would never interpret that he cared for Harry for 
Harry's sake, but I thought he cared for Lily's.

Now, I still understand the interpretation that he cared to keep 
Lily's son alive, but I do not share it anymore. I mean no scratch 
that before I get carried away again. I am sure he wanted to keep 
Lily's son alive for the sake of his atonement, guilt, whatever. I 
just think that all of that took very secondary seat as soon as 
Dumbledore's orders changed.

Here is the conversation, anything that I am not typing up is not 
being done deliberately, but just because I do not feel it is 
relevant and it is a long quote to type up, so if you feel I missed 
something relevant, please feel free to correct me. I am starting 
with Snape's response:

"So the boy... the boy must die?" asked Snape, quite calmly.
"And Voldemort himself must do it, Severus. That is essential."
Another long silence. Then Snape said, "I thought... all these 
years... that we were protecting him for her. For Lily"
"We had been protecting him because it had been essential to teach 
him, to raise him, to let him try his strength," said Dumbledore, his 
eyes still tight shut. "Meanwhile, the connection between them grows 
even stronger, a parasitic growth: sometimes I have thought he 
suspects it himself. If I know him, he will have arranged matters so 
that when he does set out to meet his death, it will truly mean the 
end of Voldemort."
Dumbledore opened his eyes. Snape looked horrified.

"You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right moment?"
"Don't be shocked, Severus. How many men and women have you watched 
die?"
"Lately, only those whom I could not save," said Snape. He stood 
up. "You have used me."
"Meaning?"
"I have spied for you, and lied for you, put myself in mortal danger 
for you. Everything was supposed to be to keep Lily Potter's son 
safe. Now you tell me you have been raising him like a pig for 
slaughter-"
"But this is touching, Severus," said Dumbledore seriously.
"Have you grown to care for the boy, after all?"
"For him?" shouted Snape. "Expecto Patronum!" – DH, p.551


Alla:

So what do I hear Snape saying when he hears that Dumbledore wants 
Harry to die? First he is making sure that he heard correctly, yes? 
And he does it quite *calmly*.

I do not know about you, but I get the impression when Snape is truly 
upset he is going CAPSLOCK, almost like somebody else. Remember 
Shrieking Shack?  I do not hear him screaming, I do not even hear him 
**objecting**. Where do you see him objecting in this scene?

Where do you see him saying you need to come with another plan, 
Dumbledore? Oh sure he voices his shock and surprise. Again, I agree 
that he does want for **Lily's son** to live, I am not saying that he 
does not have motivation, I am saying that he forgets about it 
awfully fast IMO and all of it takes second seat to Dumbledore's 
orders. 

I grant you one thing, I forgot that Snape looks horrified when he 
listens to Dumbledore, but still for somebody who truly cares about 
keeping Lily's son alive, he does not express it clear enough to me 
at all.

I also forgot how Dumbledore neatly avoids answering the 
question "You have kept him alive so that he can die at the right 
moment?" In fact that makes me believe even more that he thought 
Harry's chances could be pretty good.

But since I do not believe Snape knew, I do not think it matters for 
the topic at hand at all. 


> Montavilla47:
> If Snape wasn't expressing disagreement at that point, what do you
> think he was expressing?

Alla:

I believe that he was expressing surprise and may be even shock, but 
I do not see disagreement here.

 
> Montavilla47:
> Neither did Harry, and he certainly cared whether he lived or died!
> 
> We readers may find Dumbledore's plans pretty silly, but almost all
> the characters in the series regard his plans as the best.  <SNIP>

Alla:

Yes and as I said upthread, I believe Harry thought about it and 
independently decided that Dumbledore's plan is good. I have no 
problems whatsoever with Harry deciding that. I have an issue with 
Dumbledore devising this plan, although as I said, I think he thought 
that possibility of survival is there.

JMO,

Alla