Choices/Snape as abuser, SKIP if not interested WAS :Re: CHAPTER

Sat Dec 5 15:48:11 UTC 2009

No: HPFGUIDX 188569

Nikkalmati:

I believe there probably is a rule against taking library books out of doors
(although didn't SS take the book from HG?) We have no evidence SS destroyed the
potion - he merely sneered at Harry for being such a klutz. You are not free to
make things up.

Alla:

Unless canon shows that anybody but Snape destroyed the potion, or it fell down without his help, I am convinced that he did it, because no other parties could come as close. Of course not everybody agrees with it, but I am not making stuff up, I am just taking what I consider the simplest explanation. But if you could give me canon evidence that potion fell down without Snape's help, I will be most happy to eat my words. IMO of course. Canon based inference when no definite explanation is available other way is not making up anything. I know I did not put IMO after that sentence, but I always try so hard to make sure opinion language is used that I do not think it was unclear from my post.

Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
I have to take the bait here and "defend" one of my favorite characters. Well,
not defend exactly, because we all agree Snape was nasty to Harry - and Hermione
- and Neville - and Ron etc. The problem may lie with the word "abuse" which
has so many strong negative meanings.

Alla:

I am going to say something and please do not think of me as being snippy, because I am not trying to be at all, this is actually the main reason I am responding to this post. I do not DO baits, period. I just do not. The reason why I put so many warnings on my post including the caption is because having debated this subject over the years in some very heated debates, I **know** how many people are tired of it (personally I still do not mind talking about it) and how many people are disagreeing with what Snape's does to be called abuse. So I thought I was respecting other list members' to make sure that everybody who hates or just tired of this subject clearly sees it, since as many know I am also pretty set in my views on this and not going to give up calling Snape **abuser**, since I interpret what he does as very real abuse.

Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
I think we see abuse in the HP books embodied in Petunia Dursley, who engaged in
verbal, psychological and physical abuse of a small child at the time he was
most vulnerable until he left her care. She humiliated him, made it impossible
for him to have friends, made him work like a servant, and, as his caregiver,
withheld any love or appreciation.

Alla:

Agreed.

Nikkalmati:
Whatever Snape does pales in comparison. In
addition, he was a close relative and she had taken him in with a promise to
care for him. She certainly violated her obligations to him. We see that even
at the end she has no kind word or regrets. I used to think she was afraid of
magic, but after DH I can only see jealousy of her sister (who was always kind
to her) as her sole motive for mistreating Harry.

Alla:

The difference between your position and mine is that I do not evaluate what Snape did to Harry by comparing it with what other people did to him. I completely agree that what Snape did pales in comparison to what Petunia did to him, I think it was much harsher abuse, although I happen to believe that if Snape was forced to take Harry in as so many fanfic authors speculated, he would have been treating Harry just as bad as Petunia did, but this is of course just speculation with no proof.

In any event, as I said I do not **compare** Snape's deeds with anybody else's. I will happily agree that his abuse is LESS, but to me it still qualifies as abuse.

Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
I don't see Snape as taking revenge on Harry because of James (as Petunia takes
revenge on Harry because of Petunia), but I do see him as testing and misjudging
Harry. I don't agree, Steve, that Harry was not cheeky in the first lesson. I
recall being a bit taken aback (and very much amused) and hoping nothing bad
would happen to Harry because of his comments. In my school talking back to a
teacher like that would have merited an immediate trip to the principal's
office. I guess no one sent students to see DD. He would only offer them a lemon
sherbert. :) <SNIP>

Alla:

I completely agree with Steve, after what Snape did to Harry on the first lesson, I absolutely refuse to put ANY responsibility for any future misgivings on Harry's shoulders, no matter how many misgivings Harry indeed committed. I think he attacked the boy, who looked like James, who did not know swat about WW and it all went downhill from there.

I think it was Snape's responsibility to ignore how Harry looks and treat him fairly.

But here are couple posts by Geoff from discussion about first lesson, which pretty much sum up how I feel about it. Just not feeling much to repeating it. You will see my posts there too. Needless to say I despise Snape's behavior at the first lesson with passion and every time when I reread the first lesson it reminds me why I am so happy that Snape dies at the end. No kidding here by the way, no baiting or anything like that.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185861

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/185870

Nikkalmati:
<SNIP>
In any case, I think "abuse" is too strong a word and should be reserved for
cases of real harm.

Alla:

Well, the difference between our positions is that I call it abuse based on Snape's intent and I believe JKR's words that Snape hated Harry till the day he died.

Just my opinion,

Alla