Snape's Psycology: WAS: More thoughts on the Elder Wand subplot - Owner?

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 187415

> Beatrice: 
I will be dividing this post into two sections.  The first will deal with the initial question of Snape's worthiness of the Elder wand and the second will talk about this psychology, specifically centering on Harry and Lily.
> 

<snip>
> > Kemper: Harry regains his self control immediately after the Crucio, that's true.  But there's no need for Snape to regain self control even after Harry casts cruios and sectumsempras at him during the Flight of the Prince. There's no need to regain the self control because Snape never lost it.
> 
> Beatrice: Perhaps that is the worst part of Snape's action, that he doesn't lose self-control.   Harry uses sectumsepra in essence, because he doesn't know what it does.  It is a spell that pops into his head as he is in full "fight" mode and as soon as he sees what it does he immediately regrets his actions and punishes himself emotionally for a long time after.  

Montavilla47:
Um.  No, he doesn't.  Harry feels bad for about ten minutes, while Draco
is lying on the floor bleeding and Snape is healing him.  Then, when
Snape returns from taking Draco to the Hospital Wing and begins 
questioning Harry, that guilty feeling is transformed into defiance and
anger.

Later on, when Harry discusses it with his friends, he's mainly annoyed 
at Hermione for being shocked and blaming the Prince, and relieved
that Ginny is defending him.  Any other guilt he might feel is 
transfered to the Prince for "betraying" Harry by inventing the spell in
the first place.

Beatrice:
And most importantly he NEVER uses it again. 

Montavilla47:
Yes he does.  He uses it in the cave when he's surrounded by
Inferi.  It doesn't work on them, of course, but he's incorporated it
into his repertoire of spells.  As Hermione later incorporates the 
Muffliato spell she scorned in HBP.

Beatrice:
Snape, on the other hand, uses it deliberately during Harry's flight from Privet Drive.  True, we learn that he actually intends to use it against Death Eaters rather than against George/Harry, but no one who believes that Harry's act of using the Cruciatus Curse is unforgivable seems to believe that it is appropriate to use this kind of curse against any enemy no matter how terrible.  (I should note here that I have defended or at least excused Harry for this act, but I won't rehash this here.).  

Montavilla47:
Crucio is an unforgivable curse, and it's only purpose is to cause pain.
Sectumsempra is a spell not currently approved by the Ministry 
(whatever that means) and "Dark Magic" (according to Snape who ought
to know).  "Dark Magic" and "Unforgivable are not the same thing.

We don't know what Snape intended for his spell to do to the other
Death Eater.  Maybe he intended to cut off the other DE's hand.  Maybe
he wanted to cause a distraction by simply cutting in a controlled manner.
Maybe he wanted to cut off the front of the broom and cause it to unbalance.
Or maybe he wanted to cut the guy's ear off.

We can't know that.  What we do know (although how Harry knows this
I can't figure out), is that Snape was attempting to use the spell in order
to *protect* someone, while Harry was using Crucio to avenge an insult
towards someone he cared about.

Beatrice:
Harry, to me is more worthy, because he may act on his emotions and make mistakes, but he knows that they are his mistakes and he regrets them (or most of them).  Also, when Harry learns of the Elder wand he desires it so that he can save himself during his final battle with LV.  He does not desire it to bring about LV's destruction.  It is a fine line, but I think an important one.  

Montavilla47:
Harry's survival is Voldemort's destruction.  If Harry is "merely" hoping to
survive their encounter, then he's denying his entire quest.

Beatrice:
While we don't know if Snape desires the wand at all, there is a part of me that believes that Snape's actions while heroic are ultimately acts of vengeance first against his abusive, muggle father; then against his romantic rival, James; and finally, against the person who murdered the only person he ever loved, LV.  Harry, on the other hand, only ever seeks vengeance in moments of heightened emotion.  In contrast to Snape, whose entire life centers around vengeance. 

Montavilla47:
I beg to differ.  

We see that Snape doesn't care much for his father (when he's ten), not that
Snape desires or contemplates any sort of vengence towards his father.

We see Snape (in a moment of heightened emotion), accidentally harm
a muggle, Petunia.  He is described as scared and ashamed immediately
afterward, denying that he even did it at all, let alone intentionally.  I don't
see any evidence of vengance there.  If he is acting in vengence, his reaction
shows no satisfaction.

When James and Sirius attack Snape, he acts in a moment of heightened 
emotion.  There is only that remark about Snaoe "giving as good as he 
got" to indicate that Snape acted vengefully toward James at any time.  
Which is no more vengeful than Harry and Draco firing spells at each 
other in nearly every book, or Harry making Goyle's toenails grow.

When Snape approaches Dumbledore, it is to beg protection for
Lily, not to ask for revenge against Voldemort.  When Snape is 
devastated by LIly's death, he isn't thinking about revenge or anything
besides his own grief.  Dumbledore doesn't appeal to Snape on 
the basis of revenge, but on the basis of protection.  To *protect*
Lily's son and thus keep her sacrifice alive. 

Beatrice:
>He is controlled certainly, but as I write this it occurs to me that
>Snape cannot survive the novel, because he will have no purpose 
>after LV is destroyed.

Montavilla47:
There are a number of Snape fans who feel that Snape's life
has been hogtied by his obligation to Dumbledore--an obligation 
motivated by a desire to protect, not a desire for vengeance.

But Snape is not nothing once Voldemort is dead.  Snape is 
a genius at potions and a knowledgeable opponent of the 
Dark Arts.  He was ambitious.  Without the need to channel
that ambition into destroying a great evil, he could use it to
invent new spells or potions or publish textbooks in either 
Potions or D.A.D.A.

He doesn't seem to like teaching that much.  At least not
Potions (he seems a lot happier to me teaching D.A.D.A.), 
but there are any number of other professions he could 
take up--such as cursebreaking for Gringotts--and many
brilliant projects he could undertake.

> Beatrice:
>  I don't know that Snape's "initial selfish desire" has changed at all.  When we first see him as a child, his desire is Lily and only Lily.  Snape is willing to do whatever he needs to do to be close to her and to separate her from other (eg. Petunia).  Snape already hates muggles, but makes an exception for Lily.  

Montavilla47:
I don't see that Snape hates muggles.  He hates Petunia, but then, so does
everyone except Lily.

Beatrice:
The reader is led to believe that Snape's hatred comes from the abuse he receives at the hands of his father.  While here Harry sympathizes and may even feel a kind of kinship with Snape because of the way the Dursleys treat him, Harry is able to move beyond the Dursleys perhaps because of his mother's love and her sacrifice.  

Montavilla47:
Really?  When does Harry show any love towards muggles?

Beatrice:
> So we move into Snape's adolescence and young adulthood.  Snape is tormented by James certainly.  Both boys are fueled by their feelings for Lily and their contempt for the other position on matters of pure blood.  

Montavilla47:
I don't see Snape or James's conflict as coming out of differing views on 
pure blood, but being personal.  Which is what Dumbledore tells Harry in 
the first book.  If they do feel intellectual contempt for each other, it's not
on the basis of blood, but on the basis of House affiliation, which is not 
quite the same thing.


Beatrice:
Not that I excuse James's behavior, but then again neither does Harry and we are only privy to a couple moments of their rivalry.   Snape still hates muggles despite the fact that his great love is muggle-born. Snape seems to place her above muggles and muggle-borns by virtue of his feelings for her.  Even so, he can't hide his hatred and the growing darkness in his heart and eventually drives her away.  

Montavilla47:
Where does Snape ever show hatred for muggles?  Except for that moment of 
heightened emotion, where he calls Lily a mudblood, the only thing he does is 
condone his friends teasing a muggle-born girl.

Harry condones his friend permanently scarring a Ravenclaw girl.  That 
doesn't mean he hates Ravenclaws.  He condones his friends shutting a 
Quidditch player in a cabinet for days.  That doesn't mean he hates 
Quidditch players.

Beatrice:
> As adults, Snape and Lily find themselves on opposite sides of a very great divide.  Snape seems to relish his position as a Death Eater and as we know relates the prophesy that ultimately sends LV after Lily Potter and her family. 

Montavilla47:
When do we ever see Snape "relishing" his position as a Death Eater?

Beatrice:
 We hear with contempt that Snape has begged for her life over that of her husband and son.  Perhaps Snape even sees this as an opportunity to rid himself of his rivals for Lily, but he also recognizes the danger here.  He doesn't trust that the Dark Lord will spare Lily, perhaps he has seen too much of the Dark Lord's "mercy" and his "rewards."  So Snape goes to Dumbledore as a means to an end and accepts his mission in return for DD's protection of Lily, oh yeah and her family as an after-thought.  

Montavilla47:
Right, but there's no indication--ever--that Snape saw this as an 
opportunity to rid himself of his rivals for Lily.  Dumbledore's contempt is 
based on Snape's indifference towards James and Harry, not any hidden or
blatant desire on Snape's part to free up Lily for himself.

It seems that if that motivation were supposed to be part of Snape's 
thinking, then Dumbledore would have brought that up, instead of 
mere indifference.


Beatrice:
> When Lily is murdered and Harry survives, Snape is devastated, but ultimately feels nothing for Harry other than a duty toward Lily at DD's urging.  Snape meets Harry and immediately sees James and Harry's mediocrity.  Snape is angry.  He hates Harry.  He wants Harry to be like Lily perhaps, but doesn't allow himself to her in him.  Snape protects Harry and abuses him at the same time.  Snape protects him, because ultimately he is Lily's son, abuses him because Harry is also James's son and  perhaps because he sees mediocre Harry as unworthy of Lily's love and sacrifice.  IMO  Snape never changes in this position.  Snape has more than one opportunity to see Lily's nature in Harry and Snape fails utterly and completely.  

Montavilla47:
I agree with all of that, with the except of the word "abuses," because I don't 
believe that Snape did abuse Harry.  He was hard on Harry.  He was unfair
to Harry.  That doesn't necessarily rise to the level of abuse.

Beatrice:
Snape even sees the abuse that Harry is subject to at the hands of the Dursleys and cannot muster any compassion for him.  

Montavilla47:
That's ambiguous.  I think his question about the dog is a tiny bit 
of compassion.  But I understand if you don't think that.

Beatrice:
Harry, on the other hand, is ashamed of his father's treatment of Snape and quite sympathetic to Snape's younger abused self.  

Montavilla47:
I agree with you there.  Harry is definitely more compassionate than
Snape about that.  Although, I'm not sure there needs to be a contest.

Beatrice:
When if ever does Snape show compassion for anyone other than himself and Lily? 

Montavilla47:
When he swears an unbreakable vow to Narcissa to protect her son.  In 
contrast to Dumbledore, Snape vows to protect Draco without asking 
anything in return.

Beatrice:
Even in death Snape only has a moment of looking at Harry's eyes, Lily's eyes before he dies.  Throughout his life, Snape seems motivated by his own selfish desires, no consumed by them and his horrible prejudices.  

Montavilla47:
Yes, he *seems* that way.  That's because the author is playing a 
twist on us.  The whole point of the Prince's Tale is to show us that
Snape, who seemed to be motivated by envy, selfish ambition, 
horrible prejudice and vengeance, was instead motivated by love.

Beatrice:
That he simply shifts his prejudices from one faction to the other is hardly surprising given the way in which he is scarred, but it hardly makes him a noble or worthy person.


Montavilla47:
I was going to beg to differ again, but I don't think it's right
to call him a "noble or worthy person" either.  He's a person.
And in every person the "noble and worthy" is implied.