Secrets (Long) OLD POST REPOST

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 186440

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> > 
> > Montavilla47:
> <SNIP>
> > > As far as the "filthy father" line at the end of HBP, I would argue that
> > this is more based on Harry's actions at the moment,  and less about 
> > Snape worrying about James using them twenty years earlier. 
> > 
> > But even if Snape is angry because Harry reminds him of James in both
> > instances, there's nothing to show that Snape was crippled by that 
> > grudge in the ten years between James's death and Harry's arrival
> > at Hogwarts.  If anything, he was probably more upset about being
> > turned down for the D.A.D.A. job each year.
> > <SNIP>
> >> But my point is, it makes sense to re-examine Snape's motivations,
> > just like it does to do so in GoF after we discover that Moody is actually
> > an evil impostor, or in PoA, after we discover that Sirius is innocent of 
> > betraying the Potters to Voldemort.
> >
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I know I argued in my previous post that I agree that both interpretations are possible as to why Snape outed Lupin, but I do think that in general for your interpretation to stand it just requires to dismiss too many characters' testimony. Dumbledore was hiding truth, Lupin was mistaken, Sirius was what? Sorry do not remember.

Montavilla47:

Yeah, I don't remember Sirius saying much about Snape holding a grudge
at all.  He simply seems to dislike Snape, as Snape does him.  

But the thing is, Alla, we KNOW that Dumbledore is hiding the truth
because we see Dumbledore promise Snape that he will do just that.  
What Snape doesn't know when he demands that promise is that 
Dumbledore will hide the truth by telling Harry something that Snape
considers humiliating.

And yes, Lupin was mistaken.  That's never stated implicitly, but 
it's pretty obvious after reading the Prince's Tale.

I think there's a lot more canon evidence that Snape's blow-up
in the Shack was based on his belief that Sirius told Voldemort
how to find the Potters than there is, say, for the idea that 
the Slytherin students came back to fight the Death Eaters in the 
final battle.

Alla:
> And here we have Snape itself, still remembering Harry's "filfy father" using his curses against him while said father had been dead for more than twenty years and Snape is still sputtering rage to his son.

Montavilla47:
You're right that Snape is sputtering in rage there--well, declaiming like
a bad Shakespearean tragedian in rage is more like it, but in any case,
Snape has a whole lot of reasons to be angry in that scene.  He's just
discovered that Draco has managed--despite all Snape's efforts--to
sneak in a gang of Death Eaters to wreak havoc in the castle.  He's 
just had to kill Dumbledore--something he didn't want to do.  And
he's now being chased by the whippersnapper "Chosen One" who 
keeps trying to throw his own spells at him (which, as far as Snape
knows, were obtained by lying, stealing, and cheating).  

Snape, by throwing in James here, is no more showing a grudge 
against James than Harry did when he threw James into Snape's
face back in PoA.  

Snape has no reason to need any grudge against James to fuel
his rage at this moment.  He's got all the ammunition he needs,
including his anger at Harry.  Who is right there and not dead.


Alla:
> I mean, I highly suspect that JKR thinks that it goes against christian forgiveness and all that, but personally I think Snape has every right to his grudges, we can't help how we feel. As long as he would have hold his grudge to his despicable self (IMO) in his dungeons, I would not have said a word against him.
> 
> I take objection to the argument that he does not hold said grudges, that's all.

Montavilla47:
The original statement that I reacted to was on that Snape 
"wasted his life" holding grudges against dead people, who, as
Pippin nicely put it, were happy in their deadness and couldn't
care less that Snape was stewing about their days at school.

I rather like the sentiment.  I mean, that's quite a nice
message to give in a story.  But I just don't think that it's 
necessarily what really happened in the books.

I'm not saying that Snape doesn't hold grudges.  He obviously
held them against Harry--who responded in kind until he 
realized what Snape's true motivations were.  

But I don't see him holding a grudge against the dead 
Sirius and the "grudge-holding" against James only comes
out in relation to Harry--which means that the ninety
percent of his world that doesn't have to do with 
Harry is probably free of any James grudging at all.