Snape and Harry and expulsion WAS: Re: CHAPTER DISCUSSION Chamber of Secrets

[dumbledore11214]

No: HPFGUIDX 188812

Pippin:
Actually, the kids haven't had a chance to advocate for Sirius. Fudge assumes
that Snape's cut is Black's work, and Snape says "As a matter of fact, it was
Potter, Weasley, and Granger, Minister...."

At this point the kids haven't had a chance to say anything. Nor is there the
slightest chance they would be believed even if Snape hadn't been the one who
suggested they were confunded. Without proof that Pettigrew is alive, no one is
going to believe them.

Snape says that any other students would be suspended "at the very least" --
Clearly Snape is in favor of treating Harry more strictly. But he doesn't press
expulsion here though he implies that he could, even for lesser offenses.

Alla:

Right, sorry, I see Zara's canon as well. He talks right away, I was wrong. I would argue though that he does it to prevent kids from telling their story, which he tells Fudge and diminishes their credibility when they wake up and do want to advocate for Sirius. However my main point was that he does bring up suspension, but now I am thinking maybe I have the wrong meaning for the word "suspended", I do not have anybody in the family going to American school, not till next year, but from books and movies to me suspension means temporary detention? Am I wrong?


Pippin:
Snape said he didn't see any need to take Sirius to the castle, he could just
call the dementors. In the event, he took Sirius to the castle. He had no way of
knowing that Fudge was still there and would call for the kiss immediately --
for all he knew the Minister had left hours ago. He turned Sirius over to
Dumbledore, knowing that Dumbledore was not going to let dementors into the
castle if he could help it.

Alla:

Really? Why would he make an assumption that Fudge would leave while dangerous criminal is still on the loose? IMO Fudge not leaving is much more reasonable assumption to make and to me giving Sirius to Fudge equals giving him to dementors. So no, to me Snape did hand Sirius to dementors, and the fact that he did it through middle person (Fudge) does not change anything.

Pippin:
My point is that Snape's words are not a good predictor of his actions.

Alla:
I think Snape's words are actually pretty good predictor of his actions, when we have all the information that is. Snape acted as if he hated Harry and what do we see at the end of the books? Snape really did hated Harry till the moment he died. Again, yes, I know not everybody buys it, I take JKR's words for it because that is how I interpret canon anyway.

Of course Snape not only hated Harry , he was also protecting his life (till Dumbledore told him not to) and we did not know that. But the thing is, Snape was **quiet** about it, he was not going around saying "Potter I want you dead". In fact, we are pretty much privy to Snape not wanting Harry dead since book 1. if we accept Quirrelmort's testimony of course.

So, yes as far as I am concerned more often than not you can go buy what Snape says. Of course that does not  mean that you (generic you) will judge what is happening correctly, because you do not have all the information, Dumbledore's death case in point, but do you see my point?



Pippin:
> Would Snape have liked to see Harry suspended for a while, or better yet, on
his
> knees, pleading to stay at Hogwarts? Of course! Subconsciously, IMO, Snape
> wants to make Harry feel the way that James made him feel: frightened,
> humiliated and hopelessly inferior. And he never misses a chance to do that.

> Alla:
>
> I think you are weakening your argument here. It is really not a long road to
travel from what you describe to what I think Snape wants IMO.


Pippin:
Ah, but it is a long road for JKR. The whole premise of the books is that hating
someone. wanting to make them feel frightened and humiliated and miserable, and
wanting them dead, are two entirely different things. If you can't buy into
that, then of course the characters' actions are not going to make sense. Harry
greatly fears that Snape wants him expelled, just as he greatly fears that Snape
wants to kill him. But he's wrong on both counts.

JKR wants us to see that we fear hatred too much, so, like Harry, we fixate on
that, and ignore the perils of indifference, not to mention misguided good
intentions. Quirrell and Fake!Moody come much closer to killing Harry than Snape
does, and yet they don't hate him at all.


Alla:

When I said that it is not a long road to travel from what you are describing to what I describe as Snape's intentions, I concentrated on the part that Snape wanted Harry suspended, not on the fact that he hated Harry. You seem to agree that he would want Harry expelled temporarily and I think he wants Harry expelled permanently, but again maybe I am misunderstanding what suspended means in the American schools? See above.

I agree that it is a longer road from hatred to actions, although I do not think that it is such a long road either. I guess yes, I do not think that if person hates another person (note that I do not say extremely dislikes, I say hates) that this person wants good things for another person. I mean, I do not think it means killing of course not necessarily, but I was arguing that Snape wants Harry expelled, not dead. 

And Quirrelmort and Fake!Moody did not hate Harry?  I never got that impression personally.

JMO,

Alla.