Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 188863



--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" <dumbledore11214 at ...> wrote:
>
> 
> Alla:
> > First and foremost I cannot stress enough that as far as I am concerned if
> Snape wants to expel Harry and whatever follows from it means that Snape should
> be less evil than I view him, not more...
> 
> Montavilla47:
> I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if it's that
> Snape's sincerity in wanting Harry expelled has little bearing
> on whether or not he's "evil," then I think I agree. I mean,
> I suppose he'd be more evil if he wanted Harry *dead.* But
> if you want to think him evil for scaring Harry, rather than
> evil for truly wanting Harry out of Hogwarts, go ahead.
> 
> No skin off my nose.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Heh, not quite I think. What I am saying is that Snape who sincerely wants Harry out of his sight (providing of course that Harry who is out of his sight stays alive and not dead) is in my eyes less sadistic evil bastard then the one who does not want Harry out of his sight (providing that he wants him in his sight to torment him and not just keep him alive).
> 
> Does that make more sense? We both agree that Snape does not want Harry dead. Say we also both agree that Snape does not want Harry expelled and just bluffs. To you (sorry for putting words in your mouth, feel free to correct me if I am wrong) that means that Snape does not want Harry expelled because he promised to keep him alive, right? But to me (if I were to agree that is) that means that Snape does not want him expelled also because he gets a joy out of seeing Harry humiliated and in pain. I do not know how to explain it any better.
> 

Montavilla47:

Ah!  Got it!  You explained it EXCELLENTLY.  And I'm in 
awe of the ways you keep coming up with to keep Snape
evil!

Seriously.  I love that idea, even if I don't buy it.  I think
Snape would love it best if Harry were safely far, far 
away from him.

But I also think that he knows that isn't going to happen,
so he's just got to bite the bullet and try to educate the 
little brat.


> Montavilla:
> But I'm not sure that Dumbledore had the power to free
> Snape from the promise, since the promise was only made
> to Dumbledore as a proxy to Lily. As Snape makes clear
> in that scene, he's not doing it for Dumbledore. He's doing
> it for Lily.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> Well, I do not think I can agree with that. I mean, sure he does it for Lily as well as he says, what I disagree with is that he is not doing it for Dumbledore. I think agreeing to convince Harry that he needs to die pretty much shows that he is really doing for Dumbledore. We can argue for a long time who is the primary recipient of Snape's promise of course. I can certainly agree that Lily is one of them, I just do not agree that she is the only one and I think that by agreeing with Dumbledore Snape chosen Dumbledore as his main promise holder (if this is even a right expression lol).


Montavilla47:
I think this is the central dilemma that Snape faces after
Dumbledore tells him the real (or "realish") plan.  He's been
basing this all along on doing it for Lily (because Dumbledore
has told him that's the only thing he can possibly do to make
it up to her).  Now he's forced to choose between that 
old idea and the new idea that it's more important to have
Harry die than to keep Harry alive.  

That might be why Dumbledore brings up all the people
Snape watched die.  He knows that Snape has taken on
a bit of a "saving people thing" and he's counting on that
to persuade Snape to help in Harry's sacrifice.

> 
> Montavilla:
> Which is why I think (although I have nothing else to back
> it up) that it did take Snape some time to reconcile himself
> to Dumbledore's final plan. I think he would have had to
> think it through and decide for himself that *Lily* would have
> thought it more important for Voldemort to be gone than for
> Harry to live. <SNIP>
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I always thought it took him couple of minutes to reconcile himself  to Dumbledore's plan while he was talking to him and he proceeded to start preparing for the plan, dutiful servant he was. But I realize that conversation ended with Snape not saying anything one way or another, so I cannot disprove what you said. I cannot agree with it either though.

Montavilla47:

Right.  It ends with Snape vehemently denying his allegiance
to the "Greater Good" and reaffirming his allegiance to Lily.

"ALWAYS!" he shouts, as he produces his doe patronus.  It was
*always* for Lily.

But the next time we see him, he's dutifully taking orders from
Dumbledore's portrait.  So, in between those two moments (which
took place months apart in time--the argument took place just 
before March and the portait conversation took place in mid-July),
Snape realized that Dumbledore was right and that he needed to
stick to the plan.