Snape and Harry and expulsion LONG

[montavilla47]

No: HPFGUIDX 188873

> Montavilla47:
> 
> At the time, Harry didn't know that Snape was involved in
> his parents' deaths, so I don't think that could have been
> part of his suffering. But I thought I covered this incident
> under "snide remarks," because that's all it really amounts
> to. And, like Aunt Marge's snide remark about James, it's
> something that only causes suffering if you allow it to.
> 
> Harry has plenty of people who would love to praise James
> to him. If he suffers that much from hearing one or two
> bad things about his father, he just has to go have tea
> with Hagrid in order to sooth his tormented soul.
> 
> Alla:
> 
> I think you are downplaying the power of words, the hurtful words, the hateful words. I always thought that "words can kill" is not just a metaphor. 
> It was up to Harry to not let hurtful "snide remarks" to get to him?  If Harry would not have let those remarks get to him, does that make Snape shooting his mouth off any better?  The fact that the recipient of the verbal abuse (I hope I stated enough in the past that qualifying Snape's actions as abuse is my opinion, so I am not going to put it up every time) can "tough it up" (or whatever expression is the right one) and show a chin up face to the world to me does not make the actions of the abuser better in the slightest. Yes, Harry did not know that Snape played a part in his parents' deaths, very true.  This is just an added extra layer of disgust for me as a reader when I reread it after DH. But at the time Harry knows perfectly well that his parents are dead and he misses them like crazy and wants them with him and he is just thirteen and here is Snape, who is his teacher and who badmouths his father at him. Yes, to me sounds like plenty to be upset about. 

Montavilla47:
I think we'll have to keep on disagreeing about whether
this remark amounts to abuse or not.  My dad is dead and I 
miss him alot, but if someone said mean about him, I would
think about the many, many people who loved him and have
told me what a great guy he was.

That's just something people tend to learn.  That's what 
schoolyards and gym class are for, aren't they?

Alla:
> As an aside I just realized something, I know I stated it in the past that Snape's character types are usually my favorite characters and it bothered me that I could not feel same way about Snape. I also stated in the past that I figured out that all the characters I love could have been as sarcastic and rude as they wanted to, only they did it to their equals and I loved every second of it. Anyway, I just realized that Snape does not even do that.  Let me explain, I always thought that while Snape abuses children verbally, he is equally rude to the adults and I just had an epiphany. No, he is not IMO. I mean, he IS to some adults, but only to those beneath them.  He is rude to Gilderoy, but everybody despises Gilderoy and deservingly so.  He is rude to Sirius but Sirius' position is certainly beneath him in OOP IMO. He is not CHEERFUL with everybody but he is never rude to Minerva, he is never rude to Dumbledore, in other words he is never ever rude to higher ups. So he does not even have the devil may care attitude, he does not want to run his mouth at those who have more power than he did, only to those who are beneath him.

Montavilla47:
You're right that he's never rude to Minerva or Dumbledore, even 
when he's "above" Minerva in DH.  On the other hand, she's pretty
darn rude to him at that moment.

When is he *rude* to Gilderoy, exactly?  When he insists on his 
place as Potions Master?  I don't recall him being anything but 
scrupulously polite--overly polite, really--at other times.

As for Sirius, I don't think he's ever "above" Sirius.  I certainly
don't think that if you asked anyone in the Order of the Phoenix
where the two stood in status within the group that they'd say
Snape was above Sirius.

Alla:
> I mean even in HBP when he argues with Dumbledore and more than once does he ever say something demeaning to Dumbledore?
> 
> And is he ever rude to Fudge?  Anybody please feel free to correct me of course.

Montavilla47:
I don't think he ever was rude to Fudge or Dumbledore.
At most, he was *vehement* when he thrust his forearm in
Fudge's face.  Fudge was, of course, taken aback by that.  But
I wouldn't call Snape rude at that moment.

> Montavilla47:
> Didn't Harry express a desire just before then to do just
> that in the hopes that people would think he'd done something
> heroic--rather than be beaten up by Draco?
> 
> I admit it's a really jerk move by Snape, but it's hardly the
> worst thing that's happened to Harry that day--or that
> hour, come to think of it.
> 
> And, as I recall, the only people who even notice Harry are
> Ron and Hermione.
> 
> Alla:
> Yes and what happened to Harry at the hands of Umbridge was much worse physically than what Snape ever did to him (I still think that emotionally they are not too far from each other).  How is this relevant in evaluating Snape's actions on its own? I do not care about who noticed Harry, I do not care that much worse happened to him that day, I honestly and truly do not think that this is relevant in the slightest to what Snape intended to do to him. And to me he intended to humiliate him and badly.

Montavilla47:
He probably did.  But he didn't really manage to do that,
did he?  Which brings us back to the idea of "weenie" dark
impulses.

I think was Mike Smith who mocked Snape as "Snape:  The
Villain Who Assigns Extra Homework!"  

Seriously.  As a bad guy, Snape's on about the level of
the principal in Ferrous Beuller's Day Off.  Or Wiley E. Coyote.



> Alla:
> >
> > Does he though? I thought Draco said enough rude things to Hagrid in order for
> Hagrid to view him as Draco and react the way he does.
> >
> Montavilla47:
> Well, Draco is very rude to Hagrid. You may be right
> about that. But I get the feeling that Hagrid's dislike of
> Draco is based on more than the kid being rude.
> 
> 
> Alla:
> 
> That's not  quite my feeling, no. I mean I know we have that quote from Hagrid about Malfoys' bad blood, but by that time he already observed Draco in action in school for a year, I think he has plenty of reasons to dislike Draco for who he is, Lucius notwithstanding. Although I suppose I would put it in 95/5 percentage – 95 being for Draco being who he is. This is Draco who despises Hagrid without **ever seeing him** already, so if he comes to school and talks nearly as bad as he talks to Harry in the shop, I would say Hagrid has every reason to despise Draco for being Draco Malfoy.
> 
> However, however having said that  I certainly cannot get in Hagrid's head and if he despises Draco for being Lucius's son first and foremost, then I absolutely think he is being just as wrong as Snape for despising Harry for being James' son.
>
Montavilla47:
Oh!  That reminds me of another teacher.  Croody.  His
whole relationship to Draco is based on his hatred of 
Lucius.  

Something which doesn't seem to bother anybody
at Hogwarts.  Almost as if such built-in antipathy 
were part of the system.